Making fun of Catholics
I just thought I would let you guys know that attacking Catholics is not really clever, witty or funny.
So says Greg Crave, vice chancellor of the Australian Catholic University, in his opinion piece published in the Australian National Times.
This is another one of those opinion pieces that are so deliciously ironic and hypocritical that I hardly feel observant to point it out, but point it out I must.
Sir Crave's piece starts out with the bold headline: "A plague of atheists has descended, and Catholics are the target" with the subheadline, "Attacking Christians is not really clever, witty or funny" and then proceeds to write a piece that appears to be an attempt to attack atheists in a way that is clever, witty and funny.
He begins by saying:
Let's think about this. Atheists who are vice chancellors for universities do not write opinion pieces in national newspapers claiming that it is not witty to attack atheists (who have been attacked since the dawn of religion) and that Catholics are the largest and most unappealing plague infestation of unwelcome and unlovely creatures.
There are idiots in every camp, and if an atheist behaved this badly, I would call that atheist out on his hypocritical xenophobic, bigoted hate speech immediately.
Crave goes on to explain that "traditional" atheists "tended to be quiet blokes called Algie with ancillary interests in nudist ceremonies, who were perfectly happy as long as you pretended to accept a pamphlet in Flinders Lane.
Apparently, the good atheists are the ones who keep their godless mouths shut about their godlessness. I am not Australian so I don't know what the references to Algie and Flinders Lane are, nor do I get the reference to nudist ceremonies. Crave apparently does not mind the atheists who are quiet, but decries the "new" atheists who are
Nice! Crave managed to insult non-Catholics as well as atheists by completely diminishing all that they have works for by referring to them as "Guerilla bands" as if they are meeting in huddled corners of abandoned buildings. He does this in the same paragraph that he compares atheists to terrorists.
Sir Crave, make no mistake: we have issue with parts of all religions. The Catholic Church is a very large organization and it is unique in the way in which it functions as well as its vast historical significance to the current culture. When you have an issue with certain beliefs, you tend to spend more time targeting the beliefs that are most pervasive in society. Jesus is central to Catholicism, so you spend a lot of time talking about Jesus. Sin is a big issue, so you spend lots of time talking about sin. The date of Jesus' birth is not central to your doctrines, so you spend much less time targeting that for discussion. This is perfectly logical and the way that most people manage their time or focus. Instead, he portrays us as a petty group of people attacking Catholics because it might mean someone will pay attention to us.
Crave goes on to attack other religions (not the superb hypocrisy here) proving that what he means by "Attacking Christians is not really clever, witty or funny" is "Attacking the Catholic Church is not really clever, witty or funny – but attacking everyone else IS."
But Oh no! atheists are bigoted for pointing out that some Catholics are bigoted.
Apparently, Crave thinks we are supposed to ignore or politely dismiss Christians. But he is not ignoring or politely dismissing us.
The end of his piece reads: "There is nothing funny, witty of clever about hate."
You're right. Sir Crave – you are a bigoted, hateful individual, as evidenced by your writing. Please. Imagine that someone were writing a piece as scathing as yours in a national newspaper about Catholicism. If the "media" has something negative to say about Catholicism, it is usually to point out some FACT. It is a fact that there is an issue in the Catholic Church concerning child sexual abuse by priests. It is a fact that some Catholics are hateful to other religions. It is a fact that some Catholics condone treating women as inferior to men. It is a fact that the Catholic Church persecutes homosexuals. It is a fact that the Catholic Church uses public money for religious purposes. It is a fact that the Catholic Church has spoken out against public health care. It is a fact that the Catholic Church raises children to believe in the tenants of Catholicism, sometimes using psychologically subversive techniques. Can you imagine a group of schoolchildren being forced to recite passages from The God Delusion on a weekly basis and being smacked if they say "god bless you" when someone sneezes? I don't know what that reference to the cane toad is, unless Crave means that atheists are being bigoted when they compare Catholics to a plague. Yes, it is bigoted when you compare a group of people to the plague. Crave needs to take a good long look in the mirror.
I'd really recommend reading Craves whole article – it's the most ironic mishmash of hypocrisy I have read in a long time. I only included a few select quotes.
So says Greg Crave, vice chancellor of the Australian Catholic University, in his opinion piece published in the Australian National Times.
This is another one of those opinion pieces that are so deliciously ironic and hypocritical that I hardly feel observant to point it out, but point it out I must.
Sir Crave's piece starts out with the bold headline: "A plague of atheists has descended, and Catholics are the target" with the subheadline, "Attacking Christians is not really clever, witty or funny" and then proceeds to write a piece that appears to be an attempt to attack atheists in a way that is clever, witty and funny.
He begins by saying:
From time immemorial, this world has been troubled by plagues. From bogong moths in Canberra to frogs in biblical Egypt, unwelcome and unlovely creatures have the awkward habit of turning up in bulk.
Just now, we are facing one of our largest and least appealing infestations. … we are beset by atheists.Wow. Atheists – fellow human beings who lack belief in god – are one of the largest and least appealing plague infestations of unwelcome and unlovely creatures. I guess it is not clever, witty or funny to insult Christians, but it is clever, witty and funny to compare atheists to plague infestations.
Let's think about this. Atheists who are vice chancellors for universities do not write opinion pieces in national newspapers claiming that it is not witty to attack atheists (who have been attacked since the dawn of religion) and that Catholics are the largest and most unappealing plague infestation of unwelcome and unlovely creatures.
There are idiots in every camp, and if an atheist behaved this badly, I would call that atheist out on his hypocritical xenophobic, bigoted hate speech immediately.
Crave goes on to explain that "traditional" atheists "tended to be quiet blokes called Algie with ancillary interests in nudist ceremonies, who were perfectly happy as long as you pretended to accept a pamphlet in Flinders Lane.
Apparently, the good atheists are the ones who keep their godless mouths shut about their godlessness. I am not Australian so I don't know what the references to Algie and Flinders Lane are, nor do I get the reference to nudist ceremonies. Crave apparently does not mind the atheists who are quiet, but decries the "new" atheists who are
As brash, noisy and confident as an electric kettle.That's very brash, noisy and confident of Crave to proclaim these things about atheists, isn't it? He goes on to say that the "new" atheists are targeting Catholics in particular. He thinks this is odd, given the proliferation of other religions for us to target and surmises that we attack the Catholic Church because doing so is the equivalent of "nuking the Pentagon" and "Guerilla bands of Baptists and Pentecostals can be liquidated at leisure."
Nice! Crave managed to insult non-Catholics as well as atheists by completely diminishing all that they have works for by referring to them as "Guerilla bands" as if they are meeting in huddled corners of abandoned buildings. He does this in the same paragraph that he compares atheists to terrorists.
Sir Crave, make no mistake: we have issue with parts of all religions. The Catholic Church is a very large organization and it is unique in the way in which it functions as well as its vast historical significance to the current culture. When you have an issue with certain beliefs, you tend to spend more time targeting the beliefs that are most pervasive in society. Jesus is central to Catholicism, so you spend a lot of time talking about Jesus. Sin is a big issue, so you spend lots of time talking about sin. The date of Jesus' birth is not central to your doctrines, so you spend much less time targeting that for discussion. This is perfectly logical and the way that most people manage their time or focus. Instead, he portrays us as a petty group of people attacking Catholics because it might mean someone will pay attention to us.
Crave goes on to attack other religions (not the superb hypocrisy here) proving that what he means by "Attacking Christians is not really clever, witty or funny" is "Attacking the Catholic Church is not really clever, witty or funny – but attacking everyone else IS."
Catholics have the undeniable advantage that they demonstrably believe in something. Attacking some of the more swinging Christian denominations might mean upsetting people who believe a good deal less than the average atheistHe proceeds to use lots of insulting adjectives in an apparent attempt at wit, referring to atheists as, "a diverting pastime", "designer atheism", "common or garden atheist", "tabloid atheist", "atheistic bigotry". Let's imagine for a moment that these adjectives were applied to Catholics. Catholicism is a diverting pastime. Designer Catholicism. Common or Garden Catholicism. Tabloid Catholicism. Catholic bigotry.
But Oh no! atheists are bigoted for pointing out that some Catholics are bigoted.
In an average week of atheistic bigotry in the Melbourne Media, we can expect to learn that Catholics endorse child molestation, hate all other religions, would re-introduce the crusades and the auto de fe at the slightest opportunity, despise women, wish to persecute homosexuals, greedily divert public moneys for their own religious purposes, subvert public health care, brainwash children, and are masterminding the spread of the cane toad across north AustraliaUm…Here's the thing. I do not hear atheists (even Australian ones) claiming in the media that Catholics do all of those things in the above paragraph. We say things like this: "This particular Catholic demonstrably hates other religions. Here are some specific examples…" which gets strawmanned into… well… this. If atheists do say this, then I do not agree with them. Even if they do make these blanket strawman statements, Crave is the pot calling the kettle black. Of course, when he wants to point out examples of "atheist bigotry", he provides no references to the claims being made.
Apparently, Crave thinks we are supposed to ignore or politely dismiss Christians. But he is not ignoring or politely dismissing us.
The end of his piece reads: "There is nothing funny, witty of clever about hate."
You're right. Sir Crave – you are a bigoted, hateful individual, as evidenced by your writing. Please. Imagine that someone were writing a piece as scathing as yours in a national newspaper about Catholicism. If the "media" has something negative to say about Catholicism, it is usually to point out some FACT. It is a fact that there is an issue in the Catholic Church concerning child sexual abuse by priests. It is a fact that some Catholics are hateful to other religions. It is a fact that some Catholics condone treating women as inferior to men. It is a fact that the Catholic Church persecutes homosexuals. It is a fact that the Catholic Church uses public money for religious purposes. It is a fact that the Catholic Church has spoken out against public health care. It is a fact that the Catholic Church raises children to believe in the tenants of Catholicism, sometimes using psychologically subversive techniques. Can you imagine a group of schoolchildren being forced to recite passages from The God Delusion on a weekly basis and being smacked if they say "god bless you" when someone sneezes? I don't know what that reference to the cane toad is, unless Crave means that atheists are being bigoted when they compare Catholics to a plague. Yes, it is bigoted when you compare a group of people to the plague. Crave needs to take a good long look in the mirror.
I'd really recommend reading Craves whole article – it's the most ironic mishmash of hypocrisy I have read in a long time. I only included a few select quotes.

34 Comments:
It bugged me enough that I sent an email complaint to his office... not sure if there's much point, but considering how many people would write in to try to get an atheist fired had they done the equivalent it only seems fair.
http://intepid.com/2009-11-06/00.50/
Of course this article written by a brother in Christ was clearly abrasive and unwarranted. It is a fact that the Catholic Church is attacked astronomically more by Protestant Fundamentalists than ever by Atheists. I do not know where Crave got that information from. Atheism is in no way a threat to the Catholic Church. This assumption is absurd. One Catholic does not speak for the whole Church, unless of course it is the Pope.
I would like to comment on a few FACTS that you claimed about the Church. "The Catholic Church persecutes homosexuals." how so? "Some Catholics condone treating women inferior to men." how so? When has the Catholic Church persecuted homosexuals? We are taught to have compassion for homosexuals eventhough we do not agree with homosexual actions. We are actually quite tolerant of someone being homosexual. Many more protestant churches have rejected homosexuals from their congregations. I have seen this. What Catholics advocate treating women inferior to men? Where did you get this notion from? The Catholic Church spoke out against public healthcare because it covers abortion, which is as you know considered intrinsically evil and a violation of the Natural Law by the Church. Also, Catholics support healthcare reform, but many reject government run healthcare because they feel it is immoral to create another bureaucracy that will lead to rationed care and an undermining of free-enterprise. Furthermore, I really have not heard much media attacks on Catholicism as of late. However, do note that Catholicism is probably the most misunderstood facet of Christianity.
1. The Catholic church is against gay marriage. Like I said the other day, modern Christians would say that they are not oppressing gay folks by being against gay marriage, but they clearly are. The Inquisition may very well have claimed that they were not "oppressing" heretics, either.
2. Canon 1024 states, "only a baptized man can validly receive sacred ordination." Men are granted religious rights that women are not. This is the textbook definition of discrimination. Besides . . . history, dude. WTF.
3. Public health care does not cover abortion. I think it should, which is why I will also point out that it is not intrinsically evil, and if someone wishes to claim this, they should have to make that case. In addition, public health care will not lead to rationing, as this has not occurred in any of the other industrialized nations on earth, virtually all of which have national health care in some way, shape, or form. Lastly, I strongly reject the premise that free-enterprise is a moral goal in and of itself. Given that the public health care of all other industrialized nations is superior to America's private health care system in every objective way, I conclude that the potential or claimed undermining of free-enterprise should be a completely immaterial concern.
I must contend that you are very wrong concerning the nature of ordination in the Church. The Church was not given authority to ordain women, therefore, it cannot. Discrimination has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that women are not called to the priesthood in the Church. This is wholly theological. Men and Women are equal in the eyes of God, but are assigned different roles. From the purview of the Catholic Christian, this is not viewed as discrimination. One who is outside of the Church and not immersed in the mind of Christ would have this misunderstanding.
Furthermore, the Catholic Church opposes gay marriage because it is antithetical to "traditional marriage," which is and has been the foundation of civil society since the beginning of the human race. The definition of marriage is the union between a man and a woman. To call a homosexual union a "marriage" is to equate it to "traditional marriage," which it is not. Again, this has nothing to do with discrimination, but changing the institution and definition of marriage and violating the first amendment right of freedom of religion. This includes religious expression. Traditional marriage produces children naturally, the foundation of society. That being said, if one believes a certain action is immoral, and they are opposed to such, then by your logic, that makes one prejudice against the person comitting said action. I am opposed to prostitution because it is immoral. Does this make me discriminatory towards prostitutes? By no means! Its the action, not the person.
Abortion is absolutely evil. I declare it utterly evil by my conscience and the Natural Law that pervades the very core of the human heart. Ripping an innocent life out of the womb strips the God-given liberty from the human being and it is murder. Why do you not open your heart to this fact? How can you be so blind to not see the evil behind this? You do not need over-analytical processes to "figure out" whether or not abortion is moral. The understanding that the human being has a natural dignity and sacredness can be seen in our positive endeavors including the use of the conscience for compassion.
Have you done research on the nature of socialized healthcare? Canada's national healthcare system is actually very flawed. Their people come here for better quality care and to be waited on promptly. In Canada, her citizens have to wait months to see doctors and for surgeries. I do not know what kind of liberal propaganda you have been reading, but I would urge you to look at both sides of the issue.
I think that the argument "It's not discrimination, because it's what god wants" falls flat - imagine if a Muslim were to claim that they do not mistreat women - that Allah tells him to kill women who commit adultery and therefore it is not discrimination and that anyone who is not immersed in the mindset of Islam would misunderstand this.
We're not violating freedom of religion by removing the prohibition against homosexuals to marry. If anything, the government is violating freedom of religion now by not allowing homosexuals to marry. What if people have a faith such that they believe homosexuals should have the same right to marry as anyone else?
As Flimsy has stated many times, what "traditional marriage" means has changed over time. Arguing that "it's tradition" isn't a good argument, anymore than "it's tradition" is a good argument for why women should not be allowed to own land. "citizen" used to be defined traditionally as "someone who owns land".
Your argument about abortion was purely emotional so I will not address it.
Have we.. done research? Liberal propaganda... really? Augustine, you're argument is devolving into sarcastic ad hominems. Perhaps you are not frustrated but it certainly reads as though you are.
Yeah.. the World Health Organization is a liberal propaganda machine. If I asked you what kind or right-ring propaganda you have been reading which caused you to conclude healthcare reform is bad and should not be supported, would you think I was being neutral and objective on the issue? Could you please cite a source that gives some objective facts and statistics to back up your claim? I can: http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/annex01_en.pdf
“I must contend that you are very wrong concerning the nature of ordination in the Church. The Church was not given authority to ordain women, therefore, it cannot. Discrimination has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that women are not called to the priesthood in the Church. This is wholly theological. Men and Women are equal in the eyes of God, but are assigned different roles.”
So men and women are equal…but only men can hold positions of authority in your organisation (and wives should obey their husbands). I don’t think we’re using the same definition of equality.
The fact that you feel your sexism is justified (and even necessary) does not mean it is no longer sexism.
“From the purview of the Catholic Christian, this is not viewed as discrimination. One who is outside of the Church and not immersed in the mind of Christ would have this misunderstanding.”
This could be used to justify any position: “We believe X; you may think it vile, but you’re outside the Church and not immersed in the mind of Christ, so it’s your fault for misunderstanding us.” Discrimination against black people, women, gays, old women with tendencies toward herbalism in mediæval times…all can be explained away with “You aren’t one of us, so you just don’t understand”.
“Furthermore, the Catholic Church opposes gay marriage because it is antithetical to "traditional marriage," which is and has been the foundation of civil society since the beginning of the human race.”
The American Anthropology Association disagrees with you.
“The definition of marriage is the union between a man and a woman. To call a homosexual union a "marriage" is to equate it to "traditional marriage," which it is not.”
That’s just silly. A non-traditional marriage is still a marriage.
“Again, this has nothing to do with discrimination, but changing the institution and definition of marriage and violating the first amendment right of freedom of religion. This includes religious expression.”
Excuse me? Excuse me? Are you actually saying that if the government does not restrict marriage (an institution with civic rights and consequences) to your religion’s specific, sanctioned definition, then it is a violation of First Amendment rights? That is nothing short of preposterous. What if someone adheres to a religion which does sanction same-sex marriages? What if someone adheres to no religion? Why should your religion’s views on marriage take priority over everyone else’s view? Your position is precisely the sort of thing the First Amendment was written to prevent.
No one is suggesting that you be forbidden to marry heterosexually within your church. That would be a First Amendment violation.
“Traditional marriage produces children naturally, the foundation of society.”
Are you also opposed to childless, heterosexual marriages? Do you think that only potent men with reasonable sperm counts and fertile women should be allowed to marry? Should there be an obligation in marriage to procreate? If you believe this, then you are indeed promoting marriage specifically for procreation. If not, you are arbitrarily including some, and excluding some other marriages that will not lead to children.
Additionally, nothing prevents same-sex couples to raise children via adoption, artificial insemination, etc.
“Abortion is absolutely evil. I declare it utterly evil by my conscience and the Natural Law that pervades the very core of the human heart. Ripping an innocent life out of the womb strips the God-given liberty from the human being and it is murder. Why do you not open your heart to this fact? How can you be so blind to not see the evil behind this?”
How can you be so daft as to see the flaw in your argument?
We are skeptics and atheists. We do not believe in the existence of souls. We know damn well that life does not begin at conception. We believe that a human life, the life of a person with thoughts, hopes, dreams, memories, experiences, and relationships, is something morally very different from the life of any cell or collection of cells which may eventually become such a person. I will be the first to say outright that the question of when abortion is morally unproblematic is fraught with perils and grey areas, but before there’s any brain activity (around week 21 or so, if I recall correctly…though I would double-check the number) there’s no human mind, just mindless human tissue, and I see no problem there.
If you believe in the notion that a soul is injected into the zygote, then opposing abortion makes sense based on that (nonsensical) premise. If you do not, you must explain why destroying a zygote is verboten while destroying the living cells that lead up to zygotes is not (keeping in mind that as technology improves, this will eventually include any cells that can be induced to pluripotency).
“Have you done research on the nature of socialized healthcare? Canada's national healthcare system is actually very flawed. Their people come here for better quality care and to be waited on promptly. In Canada, her citizens have to wait months to see doctors and for surgeries. I do not know what kind of liberal propaganda you have been reading, but I would urge you to look at both sides of the issue.”
I don’t know what reactionary propaganda you’ve been reading, but if you look at BC’s surgical waitlist, for instance, you’ll find that nobody is likely to wait months for any surgery at all.
Of course, we should expect US healthcare to have some edge over the Canadian one, for two reasons: First, the US spends a lot more money on healthcare per capita than Canada does ($3,678 vs. $6,714 in 2006, i.e 82.5% more—not that far from twice as much). (See Wikipedia for more statistics and sources.) Second, the Canadian system is burdened with helping everybody, not just those who can afford it. In spite of this, the WHO rates the Canadian healthcare system as better overall than the American one.
“One commonly-cited comparison, the 2000 World Health Organization's ratings of "overall health service performance", which used a "composite measure of achievement in the level of health, the distribution of health, the level of responsiveness and fairness of financial contribution", ranked Canada 30th and the U.S. 37th among 191 member nations. This study rated the US "responsiveness", or quality of service for individuals receiving treatment, as 1st, compared with 7th for Canada. However, the average life expectancy for Canadians was 80.34 years compared with 78.6 years for residents of the U.S.”
Oo, oo, Ziztur's dismissed your fallacies, so I'll pounce on them! Because I feel like it. Also we just did a big segment on abortion in my ethics class, so it'll be fun to put some of that into practice.
You're appealing to emotion and begging the question. Both are fallacies and inappropriate in educated debate. Attempting to dismiss the entire idea of applying logic to the problem also undermines your ability to convince anyone - if your argument hinges on logic being irrelevant, you're left with nothing you can legitimately use to argue your case. Luckily, we're of the opinion that logic is, in fact, relevant. And yes, I know I'm not going to convince you with logic, being as you've already dismissed the very idea of it, but maybe I can save some other readers from having the impression that your woolly thinking is at all appropriate in any context.
Anyhow, the closest thing to a legitimate argument in your paragraph can be boiled down to this simple modus ponens syllogism:
"It is immoral to kill a human being. Fetuses are human beings. Therefore it is immoral to kill a fetus."
This looks reasonable on first glance, but it turns out to be a fallacy, too. It equivocates between two meanings of the word "human being". Anyone can agree that it is immoral to kill somebody who is a human person in the moral sense. Anyone can agree that a fetus is a human being in the genetic sense. But it does not follow that because something is human in one sense that it must be human in the other sense.
There's really only one way you can really define human in the genetic sense such that a fetus at any stage of development fits, and that's if it has the DNA of a human. But that definition includes lots of things that aren't human: individual human cells, human tumors grown in labs, possibly even human corpses. It seems clear that these things don't deserve any moral rights and to demand that they be given moral rights is patently absurd. More importantly, this excludes from consideration such possibilities as sapient aliens and extremely advanced artificial intelligences, who it seems clear deserve moral consideration.
There's a metric assload of ways to define a person in terms of morality (ability to reason, ability to suffer, possessing values, participating in the moral community, self-awareness, "the use of the conscience for compassion", and so on). But it's not possible to define a person in such a way that it includes fetuses but excludes, say, animals. No matter what metric you use, the line will always be problematic. A fetus at early stages of development has no more of any of those morally relevant features than a tapeworm, and there is near-universal agreement that tapeworms are fair game.
That argument is slightly problematic in that it could, depending on where you draw the line, result in the conclusion that infanticide is morally permissible, what with the fact that the fetus itself does not particularly change in any morally relevant way when birth occurs. Still, it may be possible to draw the line a little earlier than birth, but it's not remotely possible to draw it any earlier than about the end of the first trimester.
Even if a fetus is a person, though, what gives it the right to use a woman's body? Particularly if the woman has not given it permission to do so (for example, in the case of rape, or even consensual sex with conscientious use of birth control), or if there is some danger to the woman, and she is at risk of serious health consequences if she attempts to bring the fetus to term? Why do the rights of a fetus supersede the rights of the mother? If you already accept that abortion is okay in the case of rape or serious complications, congratulations, you're saner than Catholic doctrine.
What about the potential person argument, or the argument from snuffing out a person's potential future? Well, let's put it this way: cloning is a reality. At this point, we have the technology to create a full-fledged human out of a single cell. A skin cell, say. If scientists took one of your skin cells and put it through the cloning process, they could potentially come up with a full-fledged person. Every time you scratch yourself, you're committing a Holocaust of potential persons. Every second you spend not going to the laboratory and getting yourself cloned, you're killing potential persons.
"Psh, that's acceptable because you're only killing the thing through inaction. A fetus, if not killed, will become a full-fledged human on its own." There are two problems with this. The first is that if a mother simply ignores the fetus and keeps doing what she's been doing, keeps eating exactly the same amount she's been eating, the fetus will potentially starve and die. True inaction does much the same thing to a fetus as it does to a skin cell.
The other problem is this: imagine somebody steals your skin cells and is about to put them into the cloning machine (imagine, for simplicity's sake, that there's something that can be described as a "cloning machine"). If you don't do anything, those skin cells will become potential people and there will eventually be a bunch of clones of you running around. But if you decide that you would rather not have your trademark on yourself diluted by a bunch of other yous running around, or if you don't like the metaphysical soul-related implications of this or whatever, and you shut down the cloning machine. If you had not acted, your skin cells would have become full-fledged people without the slightest input from you. But you stopped the process, so you've just killed some potential people. But I think keeping people from cloning you is a perfectly reasonable and moral thing.
But, since you dismissed the idea of using logic to solve the problem of abortion, I'll come down to your level. Assuming you, like many Catholics, take the Bible as an authority, let's see what it has to say about abortion. The one instance where it actually makes any specific reference to abortion or causing a miscarriage in any way: Exodus 21:22
ASV: And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow; he shall be surely fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
The Bible prescribes a monetary fine as the punishment for abortion. Which is to say, God's word is that abortion is, while not morally good, not as evil as, say, sassing back to your parents (the Biblically-mandated punishment for which is death, as per Leviticus 20:9).
I hope you don’t mind, Malimar—I quoted your observation elsewhere just for the sake of sharing it.
Lots of people have tackled just about everything, so I'll just ask one single question, and I hope this will illustrate our frustration with your argument that the church doesn't discriminate against women, because God gave men and women different roles.
So, Augustine79, what role(s) has God given women, that men are not allowed to hold?
Well.. they are "not allowed" to become pregnant. But no amount of legislation can change that.
So maybe we should change this question: what role(s) has God given women, that men are not allowed to hold - that could be changed by legislation?
I don't mind, Petter. [thumbs up]
Clearly I am totally alone here and it is useless to argue my point of view since an appeal to emotion or "pathos" means nothing to you. All my rebuttals will be nonsensical to you because in your opinions I am not using reason. Emotion is an alternative method of gaining knowledge about the self. Logic alone is incomplete. Your insults you heaped towards me such as telling me that I am not using reason have no affect. You clearly hate religion and the concept of faith, therefore, nothing I say in your eyes is valid. Malimar, you are being unfair by insulting my intelligence in claiming that I cannot make a convincing argument using pathos. I am an academic and I understand how to make a sound argument. The ancient and medieval rhetoricians such as Plato, Aristotle, and Augustine made sound arguments using emotional appeals. Emotion is an integral process to human thought and understanding. You are clearly trying to shut me down because you agree with a particular path to knowledge that does not include emotion. All your so-called objective arguments are based on your own subjective notions that reason or logic alone is the only way to know anything. At no point did I dismiss logic! When did I do this? Your assumptions quite frankly offend me and all of you are being indignant towards my mode of thinking in order to fuel your preconceived conceptions about secular morality. Your elitist "infallible logic" is a delusion because we are all finite, imperfect beings. Not everything is knowable through logic alone.
Comparing how women are treated in Islam to the Catholic Church is incorrect. That analogy does not work simply because mistreatment and particular roles God assigns to men and women are two completely separate concepts. There is a world of difference between assigning different roles to women than taking their lives from them if they commit a sin.
"we know damn well that life does not begin at conception." No, that is your opinion. It has been conjectured that life does in fact begin at the moment of conception from biological standpoints.
Exodus 21:22 is not concerning abortion. This passage was referring to women being harmed and losing their children in the womb as a consequence thereof without the intent to abort.
Men are not allowed to hold the role of nuns, which is a special role that usually includes education for children in private schools and in catechism classes, as well as taking care of orphans. The role of women in the history of the Church has been quite astounding. Firstly, we venerate the Virgin Mary as being the only sinless human being in existence. Saint Catherine of Siena took care of plague victims during the late fourteenth century and practically restored the Papacy to Rome. Saint Teresa of Avila founded the Carmelite order and revived spirituality during the sixteenth century, along with helping the poor. Of course, the recent Mother Teresa helped the poor and destitute find comfort by providing them with shelter and medical care. Women are held in high regard in Christianity.
When did I say logic (let alone my logic) is infallible? Now you're resorting to straw men. Obviously, it's less wrong than blindly trusting emotion, and for that matter much less fallible than anything else we have access to, but never did I say it was infallible.
That ancient and medieval academics resorted to arguments from emotion isn't a very convincing defense. Ancient and medieval academics also resorted to a lot of other fallacies and came to a lot of incorrect conclusions.
Few other people here have the same emotional response to abortion that you do. Saying that we should without providing any reasons is an insult to our intelligence. If we're willing to resort to arguments from emotion, then clearly abortion must be morally acceptable because I feel not the slightest twinge of pity or empathy for the destruction of an organism that doesn't even have the ability to suffer, let alone reason or participate in the moral community. That's one reason why the argument from emotion is fundamentally flawed: not everybody's emotions are identical to yours, and expecting them to be so is insulting.
"At no point did I dismiss logic! When did I do this?"
"You do not need over-analytical processes to "figure out" whether or not abortion is moral."
Exodus 21:22 doesn't specifically deal with abortion, but it is the only place the Bible bothers to concern itself with the death of an unborn fetus, so it's the closest thing to guidance on the subject that you can find in the Bible. Obviously the guys who wrote the Bible didn't think a fetus deserves moral consideration, else they'd have assigned the same punishment to that as to accidentally killing a man (which is apparently somewhat complex, involving fleeing to a "city of refuge" and being put to death if you left that city). More importantly, if they thought abortion was wrong, they would have explicitly banned it. Abortion was not unknown in those days. Indeed, apparently Numbers 5 actually calls for administering an abortificant (apparently this is what "the water of bitterness that brings the curse" refers to) when putting a woman on trial for adultery. I had not realized that. So I guess I was wrong, and the Bible actually does explicitly condone abortion.
"Clearly I am totally alone here and it is useless to argue my point of view since an appeal to emotion or "pathos" means nothing to you."
It does mean something, but when two people feel different emotionally about some subject, you need more than "pathos".
Please, think about what you are saying here. If I said to you, "Clearly I am totally alone here and it is useless to argue my point of view since an appeal to reason or "ratio" means nothing to you." - would you find that insulting? I think you would, as you demonstrate in your later text.
"All my rebuttals will be nonsensical to you because in your opinions I am not using reason."
If we think you are not using reason, we will say - you're not using reason, and Here Is Why. If you disagree with our explanation, it would be much better to say that or explain why your reasoning is correct and ours is incorrect rather than blanket it with "it's your opinion". We could just as easily say, "well, all our rebuttels are useless to you because in your opinion we're not using the correct combination of "pathos" and "logos".
"Emotion is an alternative method of gaining knowledge about the self. Logic alone is incomplete. Your insults you heaped towards me such as telling me that I am not using reason have no affect."
When someone tells me I am using incorrect reasoning and explains to me why my reasoning is incorrect, I do not feel insulted. It is not meant to be an insult. Can you explain why you feel insulted? We never claimed logic was a complete system, so you're resorting to strawmanning our position.
"You clearly hate religion and the concept of faith, therefore, nothing I say in your eyes is valid."
Would you feel insulted if I made the statement that you clearly hate nontheism and the concept of reason? I would imagine you would. We don't hate religion or faith. We disagree with religion. We disagree that faith is a good method for determining truth.
"I am an academic and I understand how to make a sound argument."
We're all academics, aside from perhaps poor Flimsy. We're all in the same boat. But an "emotional" argument is not neccesarily a "sound" argument. A "sound" argument is by definition one that is deductively valid in a logical system. If you make an emotional argument that is not sound, we mean no insult by pointing out that it is not sound.
"Emotion is an integral process to human thought and understanding. You are clearly trying to shut me down because you agree with a particular path to knowledge that does not include emotion."
If I said, "you're clearly trying to shut me down because you agree with a particular path to knowledge that includes emotional appeals and appeals to faith" how would you feel about that statement? You're statement is an ad hominem.
"All your so-called objective arguments are based on your own subjective notions that reason or logic alone is the only way to know anything."
Correct me if I am reading this incorrectly, but this "so-called" business appears to be some form of written sarcasm. Once again, you are creating a strawman. We do not think "logic alone" is the only way to know anything. But, if you present an argument that we think is illogical and we point out where we see it as being illogical, it is not very convincing to tell us that logic isn't the only way to know things.
At no point did I dismiss logic! When did I do this? Your assumptions quite frankly offend me and all of you are being indignant towards my mode of thinking in order to fuel your preconceived conceptions about secular morality.
If that is the case (and i think it is not), then you are being indignant toward our mode of thinking to fuel your preconcieved notions about Christian morality.
Your elitist "infallible logic"
We don't think logic is infallible, and you're being condescending. You would probably feel insulted if I called your beliefs "elitist".
"Comparing how women are treated in Islam to the Catholic Church is incorrect. That analogy does not work simply because mistreatment and particular roles God assigns to men and women are two completely separate concepts."
Not being given the same rights at men IS MISTREATMENT. A Muslim would say that god has assigned roles for women too, and then use those "roles" to justify mistreating women. I stand by that analogy. Both religions use god as a reason to mistreat women, and both religions do not believe they are doing any "mistreatment".
"There is a world of difference between assigning different roles to women than taking their lives from them if they commit a sin."
There is a difference, yes. Perhaps we could use something else the Muslim community does to women that we both disagree with. Making them cover themselves?
"we know damn well that life does not begin at conception." No, that is your opinion. It has been conjectured that life does in fact begin at the moment of conception from biological standpoints.
You are wrong. Life does not begin at conception. There is no distinction to be made. The sperm is alive. The egg is alive. The woman is alive. The bacteria we depend on to keep ourselves alive is alive. The viruses within the body are alive. There is no point at which some not-alive thing becomes alive during conception. Conception is the alteration of the structure of already living things. Those gamates are both alive and then they fuse and when they fuse that fusion is also alive. Saying that life begins at conception is about equivilant to saying that my life begins at lunch i.e. It is not a biological distinction.
Yes I understand fully what you are saying, but I never said your arguments were not legitimate as I was told mine were. Did you read Malimar's comments towards me? I was told I was not using logic therefore my arguments were not taken into consideration. You dismissed my appeal to emotion completely. My point being was that our approaches to epistemology are worlds apart. I was not strawmanning your position, at least I was not intending to do such. I was essentially making an epistemological argument that included emotion or faith coupled with reason. I do not hate atheism.
I think a fetus is a human being and therefore has intrinsic value regardless of whether it has the ability to suffer or participate in the moral community. Aborting a fetus infringes upon the freedom of the human being and inherent right to exist. This right is self-evident and reasonable based on the universal notion that human beings in fact have natural rights. This natural right is an eternal principle that has pervaded the human consciousness throughout our history. We have seen what the negative consequences bring when the natural right of freedom has been restricted. The existence of a Natural Law comes from our ability to use our reason to detect such through observation. I would argue that it is unreasonable and irrational for a human being to destroy a human fetus because this restricts a life from emerging fully and the chance to contribute to society. Murdering someone does not necessarily include making them suffer. There are ways a human being has killed another in cold blood without making the person suffer. Does that make it right? The immorality of murder does not hinge upon whether or not the person murdered suffers, but upon the fact that the person's life is wrongly taken from them.
Whoa, dude! Where to start . . .
". . .and it is useless to argue my point of view since an appeal to emotion or "pathos" means nothing to you."
As others have said, the problem with an appeal to emotion is obvious - if you say that your conscience screams to you that abortion is morally evil, we can simply reply that our consciences scream to us that taking away womens' reproductive choices is morally evil.
Seriously, man, think about it. You argued from emotion, as opposed to reason. We all roundly chimed in that we find arguments from emotion spectacularly unconvincing. You responded by claiming that logic is not objective! Get it? What could be more subjective than our individual emotions!
Just bear with us; we're just trying to wrap our brains around your ideas. Take this one: "At no point did I dismiss logic! When did I do this?"
You actually dismissed logic in the very previous sentence - "All your so-called objective arguments are based on your own subjective notions that reason or logic alone is the only way to know anything."
You dismissed logic again just a few sentences later - "Not everything is knowable through logic alone."
"That analogy does not work simply because mistreatment and particular roles God assigns to men and women are two completely separate concepts."
Well, we obviously disagree - we all feel that it's entirely possible for God to give certain roles to men and certain roles to women, and, if the men's roles are all authority positions and women's roles are all subservient positions, then those roles, given by God, are discriminatory. There's no contradiction there. If there is, WHERE is it? You can't just say that there's a difference between the two, you have to explain why.
"[Big list of women who were very good servants of the church] . . . Women are held in high regard in Christianity."
But not as high as men, since women are not allowed to hold the church's authority positions. Just . . . seriously, dude, having a large list of women and saying, "look how well they did in their servant's roles" does NOT show that the organization is not discriminatory against women.
If a club had specific rules about how the role of it's white members was to hold leadership and authority positions, and the role of it's racial minority members were to serve the leadership, you would call them racist. If they said, "no, we're not racist at all - I can list ten whole colored boyz who done real well in their service!" you would still call them racist.
I know that it doesn't look like this at all from the inside of the church, but like it or not, that IS how the church looks from the outside.
You're still equivocating between the genetic and moral meanings of the term "human being" and you're still making the argument from potential personhood, which are not particularly convincing, having the various flaws I pointed out earlier.
I actually agree with you, if I read your opinion correctly, insofar as suffering is not the overwhelming moral evil, restriction of a person's freedom is (with suffering and killing being immoral because they inherently reduce freedom). With the caveat that we don't actually have free will (established quite adroitly some months ago on this blog, possibly by Petter, as I recall) and that any freedom is illusory. It's an important illusion, though, and tromping all over it is indeed bad.
But a fetus, at least at most stages of development, is not a person in any coherent moral sense. So you're trying to say that the freedom of a non-person (the fetus) to exist outweighs the freedom of a person (the woman) with regards to her own body. Restricting the freedom of people in favour of the freedom of non-people is evil.
Well it is a clear contradiction to say that aborting a fetus gives rights to a woman yet denies the fetus the right to live. Granting a woman the liberty to take away the liberty of the child of the right to live is absolute hypocrisy. You are only assuming that a human fetus is not a human. A mother can feel her child in the womb kicking and growing. A mother is emotionally and biologically attached to her child while in the womb, given the indication of the process of human connection (a human trait). Taking the life of an innocent child is evil. I never argued that a fetus is a "non-person." Such is your assertion. What is a fetus to you if not a person? A useless organism until it is actually born? According to your logic an infant is not a person because they have no concept of morality and an undeveloped conscience. So is it right to kill them? There is no logical consistency there. You are adding a qualifier to "personhood" that only includes moral awareness bereft of biological function. A child of two years of age does not have moral competency or consciousness. Does this make them "non-human."
Flimsy, we are never going to come to an agreement on whether or not the role of women in the Church is inferior. I do not believe they are. You do. There is nowhere to go from here. No woman within the Church complains because she cannot be a priest. In fact, a priest is no more important than a Nun. All contribute to the Body of Christ equally. God does not favor a priest over a Nun. I do not think of women as inferior myself. Do you really think that I personally view women as inferior to men? Nuns have quite a bit of authority in the Church Flimsy.
I said logic and reason ALONE are incomplete modes of attaining knowledge. Reason and Logic are always crucial to knowing anything. They are the processes by which we utilize our minds to uncover the Truth or truth.
“No woman within the Church complains because she cannot be a priest. In fact, a priest is no more important than a Nun. All contribute to the Body of Christ equally. God does not favor a priest over a Nun. I do not think of women as inferior myself. Do you really think that I personally view women as inferior to men? Nuns have quite a bit of authority in the Church Flimsy.”
The characteristic fact about glass ceilings is that they are invisible until you hit your head on them, and if you are a man, you’ll certainly never hit your head on this one.
It stands to reason that women in the church would not complain about not being allowed to be a priest, for several reasons: It would be pointless, for one, and for another, if she wants that, she may leave your church for one more egalitarian. You will notice that it’s very much a live issue in other churches.
You will also notice, if you look around, that “separate but equal” does not have a history of great success.
“You dismissed my appeal to emotion completely.”
Let’s go back and review it, then. Here we are:
“Abortion is absolutely evil. I declare it utterly evil by my conscience and the Natural Law that pervades the very core of the human heart. Ripping an innocent life out of the womb strips the God-given liberty from the human being and it is murder. Why do you not open your heart to this fact? How can you be so blind to not see the evil behind this?”
Now, how the fuck do you expect a discussion to issue from this? You “declare” abortion absolutely evil by appealing to your emotions—well, by our emotions, it’s not—end of story: Your emotions versus our emotions. Why should we find yours compelling? Why should we worry about how utterly superlative you declare anything to be?
“How can you be so blind…?”—this is just an ad hominem attack where you assert that we are wrong, implying that there must be something morally wrong with us just because we disagree with you. (You are also throwing in an assertion that the fetus you claim to be a human being has “God-given liberty”, in spite of knowing full well that the authors of this blog are atheists.)
The problem with an appeal to emotions is that it is only persuasive if you already agree with its conclusion. Of course you find it very convincing—you are appealing to your own emotions! However, it should be obvious that this has no power to convince anyone whose emotions do not align with yours on this issue.
I am not saying that emotion has no place in discussion: It does. Logic is a mathematical tool to get from premises to conclusions, and science is an epistemic tool to deduce what reality is all about—both parts of a toolset of descriptive laws, a view of what is, that cannot (alone) give us proscriptive laws and tell us what should be. Obviously, we need to establish some sort of ideals, which do tend to appeal to emotion (e.g. “happiness is good”, “equality is good”, “hurting people is bad”), and if we disagree on our core subjective opinions, we will never reach agreement by rational argument.
We understand that, while we hold certain opinions, not everyone shares them, and simply asserting that they are wrong is pointless and will never change anybody’s mind. We will never stoop to blankly asserting that you are a bad person for disagreeing with us, without providing any kind of rationale. We want to explain why you are wrong, by showing how you are objectively mistaken; or by exposing precisely the core, subjective differences in belief that cause disagreement. If you wish to participate in a productive discussion, you ought to try, too.
That a mother forms a "human connection" to her fetus says nothing about the fetus, only about the mother. It's common to form such a bond with a pet, but that doesn't make pets morally human.
And you've got it backwards: taking away a person's freedom in order to protect the freedom of a non-person is the absolute hypocrisy. If I told you that a tapeworm's right to exist outweighs a person's right not to have tapeworms, you'd laugh me out of the room. But an early-term fetus has no more morally relevant characteristics than a tapeworm does.
I have given a number of reasons to conclude an early-pregnancy fetus is not a person. You haven't given any valid reasons to conclude that it is, you've only asserted that you feel it is so.
You're right about one thing: I'm actually not entirely convinced that infants are persons deserving of rights of their own. People generally just assert that as axiomatic without bothering to defend it, and it doesn't seem to me as necessarily axiomatic as people think it is. So my position is perfectly logically consistent, though I'm not particularly wedded to any particular one indicator of personhood. There are a number that have merit, and I use specific ones as examples rather than as rules. The relevant similarity between all of them in this case is that they always draw the line well after conception.
As I said earlier, it's quite easy to legitimately draw the line at almost point significantly after conception. It isn't even necessary to confront the infanticide problem, because it's easy to draw the line before birth - by citing mental activity in the brain, say (although if you go based on the presence of mental activity, that winds up implying eating meat is immoral. Indeed, the earlier you draw the line, the more animals you make it immoral to kill. By any reasonable metric, an adult pig is definitely much more deserving of rights than an early-term fetus).
The one thing that makes no sense at all is to draw the line at conception. A fertilized egg or a blastocyst has no more morally relevant properties than a bacterium. The one thing that can be said, as you do, is that it is a member of the species Homo sapiens, ie, it has human DNA. But as I've pointed out, trying to declare that the morally relevant characteristic is having human DNA is not at all reasonable - it excludes any aliens we may eventually encounter or artificial intelligences we may eventually build and it includes lab-grown cultures of human cells, which just makes no sense.
I have more to say about the conception thing—in fact I already have, but it won’t go up until tomorrow morning.
For now, to boil down Malimar’s and my position to a question:
What gives a zygote moral personhood, but not gametes or somatic cells?
In your answer, keep in mind that (1) we skeptics do not believe in souls, (2) gametes are “potential human beings” just as zygotes are (only earlier in the process), and (3) technology has made or will likely make virtually any somatic cell a “potential human being”.
"Well it is a clear contradiction to say that aborting a fetus gives rights to a woman yet denies the fetus the right to live. Granting a woman the liberty to take away the liberty of the child of the right to live is absolute hypocrisy."
Yes, yes it is. That's why we've been trying to explain to you why we don't consider a fetus, particularly obviously a just-fertilized clump of cells, a "person" or a "child."
Think of this from our perspective, my friend. In our very best estimation, there is no good reason to consider a fetus a "person." If a fetus is just a mass of human tissue, not a person, then consider the ramifications of your own stance. *IF* the fetus is not a person, then you're forcing a woman to go through a very uncomfortable, debilitating period, and the potentially dangerous process of birth, against her will. You'd force a woman to either raise a child that she didn't want, or end up filling adoptions homes and orphanages all over the country. You'd be potentially forcing a man to either raise a child he didn't want, or pay large sums of child support against his will.
Just keep in mind, if you are mistaken about the "personhood" status of fetuses, you're effectively trampling the rights of others in all of these ways, in the same way that we recognize that if we're wrong about the "personhood" status of fetuses, we'd be trampling on the fetus's rights by allowing abortion.
"Flimsy, we are never going to come to an agreement on whether or not the role of women in the Church is inferior. I do not believe they are. You do. There is nowhere to go from here . . . Do you really think that I personally view women as inferior to men?"
This conversation confuses me. Discrimination, definition, from Merriam-Webster:
"a: the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually b : prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment"
Simple question; an honest answer can lay this issue to rest:
**Women are, in at least some circumstances, fully capable of holding authority positions equal to that of men, and that they should be given the right and opportunity to do so - True or False?**
This is really simple - If you disagree with this statement, you are objectively, *by definition*, discriminating against women. If you agree with this statement, then you have met the minimum standards for not discriminating against women, but you are also *factually disagreeing* with official, canon Catholic doctrine.
"I said logic and reason ALONE are incomplete modes of attaining knowledge. Reason and Logic are always crucial to knowing anything. They are the processes by which we utilize our minds to uncover the Truth or truth."
Okay, well, the thing that has all of us confused is that your original paragraph about why abortion is evil was more a statement of your emotion-based opinion (even if a very strongly-held opinion) than a logical argument. Let me put it this way - I'll reword your original statement to be based on an emotional argument FOR abortion:
-Restricting abortion rights is absolutely evil. I declare it utterly evil by my conscience and the human rights and reason that pervade the very core of the human heart. Ripping a woman's rights away from her strips the logic-given liberty from the human being and it is evil. Why do you not open your heart to this fact? How can you be so blind to not see the evil behind this? You do not need over-analytical processes to "figure out" whether or not destroying women's rights is moral. The understanding that we human beings have a natural dignity and human rights can be seen in our positive endeavors including the use of the mind for reason.-
So . . . given that this above statement is based entirely on my own emotions, with nothing like an actual, logical argument at all, I'm really, genuinely curious . . .
How would you respond? Trying to respond to the above, if I were to make such a statement, might illustrate how the rest of us here didn't see much point to arguing against your statement with cold, hard logic.
Conversely, there is not good reason for me to think the fetus is not a person. Ask a mother whether or not she thinks her child or fetus is a human; growing inside her, kicking and moving around. Ask a mother who shares her food with a fetus whether or not it is a human with value. Your positions are not objective because you place a subjective qualifier on "humanness" by dismissing experiential realities or biological functioning as not indicators of "personhood" when they still exist post-womb. You assign value to a human subjectively by setting your own criteria to what exactly constitutes being a human. Exclusively stating that it is only sentient consciousness or moral competency that indicates "humanhood" and disregarding the reality of the human connection between the mother and her child during pregnancy, the existence of brain activity and nutritional survival needs conveys that you favor a particular set of qualifiers over others that are clearly present. On what basis? If the conditions present in the fetus do not qualify it as a human, then what is it? I conjecture that a fetus is a human being on the basis that it exhibits biological functions such as a heartbeat, receiving food from his or her mother, and motor skills indicating brain activity that can be observed when he or she kicks or yawns. These are all human traits we share outside of the womb. In another sense, regardless of whether or not the fetus is a human being, the fetus is the necessary state a human must exist in in order to become a human after birth. Therefore, stopping the process of gestation by destroying the fetus, which is the contingent condition upon which a human emerges, is an injustice to the freedom of a human being by restricting his or her right to live that is wholly dependent on the survival of their pre-human fetuses. This is an unfair, injust, and unnatural action because it stifles the natural right of the human to attain "humanhood." Natural rights are self-evident and undeniable. So the mother has no right to do so because of what it does to the rights of the human that would eventually exist. This is not an argument appealing to "potential personhood," but to the wrongness of premptively not giving a human a chance to live and attaining the said value you ascribe to him or her. Well then you may bring up the issue of contraception. I do not agree with contraception for a similar reason. It is a fact that most women who have had abortions have undergone serious psychological and emotional problems regardless of whether or not society has told them so. I just used Reason in the same you have and derived a different conclusion. So then how what you are doing is objective and what I am doing is not?
The reason why you cannot separate the emotional factor from the abortion issue because it is an issue in which the question encroaches upon itself. We are all objects of the question at hand. Therefore, having an emotional affinity towards the issue is unavoidable because we all are assigning value to some aspect of the argument.
Flimsy, your refashioning of my first statement about abortion I would indeed analyze point by point rather than discard it. For instance, I would ask you the question how can logic grant liberty to the human being when logic is not responsible for the existence of the natural world? I never claimed that my first proposition was a logical argument, but an emotional argument. My contention was that an emotional argument is valid but not complete. I intended it to be a preface to my other arguments. Emotion-based arguments are meant to incur reason because once you ascribe value to something, you have emotionally committed yourself to taking one moral stance over another based on prior reasoning. Again, these are different opinions in our approaches to epistemology. I hope this clarifies my position.
“Conversely, there is not good reason for me to think the fetus is not a person. Ask a mother whether or not she thinks her child or fetus is a human; growing inside her, kicking and moving around.”
We’re pro-choice, not pro-mandatory-abortion. The mother who feels a strong emotional bond to her fetus—even though it is not yet a moral person; even though it is not yet capable of thoughts or emotions—is certainly more than welcome to keep it. The mother who doesn’t feel such a bond can abort it.
"I conjecture that a fetus is a human being on the basis that it exhibits biological functions such as a heartbeat, receiving food from his or her mother, and motor skills indicating brain activity that can be observed when he or she kicks or yawns."
Even by your definition, then, a fetus isn't human until you get noticeably into a pregnancy. Brain activity and movement, even heartbeat, don't develop until at least weeks after conception. It doesn't even start recieving nourishment from the mother until after it has implanted and created a placenta, which takes a couple days, as I recall. So by your definition, abortion is still fine if you do it early enough. And yet you oppose contraception. Your position is inconsistent, sir!
Augustine, your arguments generally are unconvincing because they apply equally well to other entities that you do not believe have moral rights. For example non-sentient animals have heartbeats and basic brain functions, and emotional connections can exist between humans and other animals. If you do not believe animals to have moral rights equal to a foetus, then your morality is inconsistent and hence unreasonable.
The idea of pre-emptively denying life to a human obviously leads to absurdities; it suggests that celibacy is immoral, or even refraining from having sex with all available fertile people. It also involves the notion that moral wrong can be done to a being which does not yet exist; if contraception is used, no human who ever exists will be harmed by it, and yet you believe it to be immoral.
All of you are misrepresenting my argument. My argument was that pre-emptively destroying life while already in the process of forming is immoral. I never stated that abortion was right early on because I clearly conjectured that it was wrong to destroy ALL the contingent conditions already in motion to form a fully functioning human being; this being from the moment of conception to pregnancy. This violates the Natural Law because the natural biological processes that take place to form a human life are being disrupted. My proposition that a fetus is a human being was dealing with that particular question at hand. This did not imply that I do not think an embryo is a human being. I was simply dealing with whether or not a fetus is a human being as the thread of this discussion. Peace be with you.
“I clearly conjectured that it was wrong to destroy ALL the contingent conditions already in motion to form a fully functioning human being; this being from the moment of conception”
Please justify this arbitrary starting point. Why not later? Why not sooner?
“This violates the Natural Law”
Please define “the Natural Law”.
Perhaps it's my ignorance of philosophy, but I can't see any difference between the "Natural Law" as it has been used here, and the fallacious appeal to nature.
Okay, let's try to boil this down to brass tacks, here . . .
"I conjecture that a fetus is a human being on the basis that it exhibits biological functions such as a heartbeat, receiving food from his or her mother, and motor skills indicating brain activity that can be observed when he or she kicks or yawns."
All of these things are also present in dogs, cows, etc. Actually, the vast, overwhelming majority of organisms that exist or have ever existed are not "persons." Since we all agree that these organisms are not "persons," none of these features are good criteria, and I think we should dismiss them.
I dismiss all the other criteria given for the same reason. For example, you mention the deep, emotional connection that a mother feels towards her fetus. Again, people have felt extremely deep, emotional connections to pets; does this mean that a person's dearly loved family dog should be considered a person, with all the rights that a person has? Of course not; so we can also dismiss this criteria as irrelevant.
Thus, at this point, having discarded all other criteria, all we have left is this one:
"In another sense, regardless of whether or not the fetus is a human being, the fetus is the necessary state a human must exist in in order to become a human after birth. . . . So the mother has no right to do so because of what it does to the rights of the human that would eventually exist."
Well, a human must exist as a sperm and egg before eventually becoming a "person" as well. So is it therefore wrong to kill these types of genetically human tissue? Again, no, of course these aren't human.
I don't get why you say that this isn't an argument from "potential personhood." When we mention the argument from potential personhood, this is exactly what we mean: "Okay, this fertilized egg isn't a person, but it might eventually become a person, therefore we must give it human rights now." Isn't that exactly what you're saying?
"You assign value to a human subjectively by setting your own criteria to what exactly constitutes being a human."
Isn't this exactly what you're doing too?
"Exclusively stating that it is only sentient consciousness or moral competency that indicates "humanhood" . . . "
The main point that I'm trying to convey is this: That "sentient consciousness or moral competency" is exactly the criteria that you use, too! You just refuse to use it in the case of abortion, and I'm trying to figure out why. For example, if we created an artificial intelligence advanced enough to reason and make moral judgements as deeply as an adult human being, would you consider it a "person," deserving of rights? What about an alien life form? If we encounter an alien organism, how would you determine whether he/she/it is a "person," deserving of rights?
I assume you would look at it's "sentient consciousness or moral competency" as the determining criteria. That's the criteria I would use, and I use that same criteria with the issue of abortion. Hopefully, I've given a decent explanation of why I discard the other criteria you propose. I'll look forward to seeing your response to those explanations.
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