Fractal Pensive Ziztur
Freedom of the Mind.
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Wednesday, December 23, 2009

Interview with Ray Comfort!

The other day I got the opportunity to send Ray Comfort (who blogs here and writes just about everywhere) some questions. Here they are!

Dear Mr. Comfort,

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to e-interview you on my blog. I know you do lots of interviews, so I tried to ask you some questions in this interview that are a little bit out-of-the-box. Of course, you're not obligated to answer any of them. Some of them are questions that were suggested by my commenters.

A very odd thing happens when I try to talk to Christians about this famous Christian named Ray Comfort – none of them seem to know who you are! Do you think you're more well-known to atheists or to Christians, and why?

Not every Christian watches TV or reads books. However, it seems that most atheists (thanks the Richard Dawkins and others) are pretty familiar with the brainless idiot known as "banana-man."

(Asked by my friend Pastor Keith): What is the gospel?

In a nutshell--that Christ died for our sins and rose again on the third day. The word "gospel" means good news, and the gospel doesn't make sense until we see why we need it, in the same way the good news of a cure makes no sense until we understand that we have a disease. The terminal disease is sin. If it's allowed to take its course, it will not only kill us, it will justly take us to a terrible place of punishment called "Hell"--because each of us has violated God's Law (the Ten Commandments). He sees lust as adultery and hatred as murder. He is morally perfect, and that leaves us all in big trouble. The good news is that God is rich in mercy, became a human being, and took our punishment upon Himself. That means, because Jesus paid our fine and rose again from the dead, God can legally let us walk out of the courtroom. He can forgive us and let us live. Our case can be dismissed upon repentance and trust in the Savior. The good news is that any of us can have everlasting life. Read the Gospel of John for details.

(Asked by reader Gord) Can you define "kind"? What is the closest equivalent to "kind" in taxonomy? Species? Genus? Something else?

The word "kind" is the biblical word for "species." God created dogs to reproduced dogs, cats to reproduce cats. Every animal was created to bring forth after its own kind. The Book of Genesis repeats this many times in the first chapter to make it clear, for those of us who are a little slow. We see evidence of this, both in the fossil record, and in living creation. The meaning of the word "species" has changed over the years. At one point it was synonymous with "kinds." However, nowadays it is used differently in different circles.

(Also asked by Gord, long question): Have you met, chat[tted] with or otherwise communicated with an Old Earth Creationist named Adnan Oktar (pen name of Harun Yahya)? His argument for creation is that despite Millions of years of existence, the fossil record shows that all kind[s] of creatures does not display any form of change at all. A fossil of a fish seems to be the same as a modern fish, a fossil of a bird seems to be the same as a modern bird, etc. He says that this clearly shows that creative genius of his Creator, Allah. What fossil evidence can you point out to him that he is clearly mistaken, that micro-evolution does happen and that an ancient fish is very dissimilar to a modern fish. An ancient bird is very dissimilar to a modern bird, etc.? What physical evidence can you show him to demonstrate that the God of the Bible is the creative force behind all of these micro-evolution? Evidence that is so compelling that nothing in the Koran can dispute to it's truth?

I have never heard of Mr. Oktar and I am therefore not familiar with his arguments, other than what you have related. Those who believe that a fish fossil is "ancient" reveal their unquestioning faith in dating methods. The fact that a fossil of a bird is different from a modern bird simply means that the Creator made them different. There was no transition from one species to another, so micro-evolution has nothing to do with Darwinian evolution. We can see micro-evolution throughout the entire creation of God--both in the fossil record and living things--from the small finch to the large albatross, from the massive Great Dane to the tiny chihuahua. These are variations within species.

As for the God of the Bible being the Creator. That's simple. The moral Law , which Moslems embrace (the Law of Moses), leaves all of humanity condemned to death and on the path to Hell. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only God-given means of escape. Islam has no answer to that, our biggest dilemma (see John 8:31-32).

(Asked by EdW) You have talked to a huge number of people about their beliefs over the years, atheists and Christians alike. According to your understanding of Christianity, broadly speaking how many would go to Heaven if the world ended tomorrow?

God only knows. The only way anyone can have assurance of everlasting life is to repent, trust Jesus alone for their salvation (without good works--see Ephesians 2:8-9) and show the genuine nature of your repentance by living a life free from hypocrisy (something the Bible calls "holiness"). You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that there aren't too many who do that. The modern church is full of pretenders, and they will be sorted out from the genuine, on the Day of Judgment.

Can you comment on the claim that part of your introduction to the 150th anniversary edition of Origin of Species was plagiarized?

No.

You're voting in a local election, and you have a choice of voting for two candidates: one candidate advocates all of the policies you advocate for, and seems rather intelligent, qualified and is an atheist. The other candidate stands against all of the policies you stand for, does not seem qualified, seems a little dim and is a Christian. Who do you vote for and why? (For me, if the situation were reversed and I had the choice of voting for an unqualified atheist or a qualified Christian, I would not hesitate to vote for the Christian)

I would never vote for anyone who advocated the murder of children in the womb. If an atheist was pro-life, of course I would vote for him. However, I will qualify that answer. A person who is surrounded by creation and yet denies the axiom that there is a Creator, isn't smart in the truest sense of the word. So an atheist disqualifies himself from the race, by the very nature of his life-philosophy. Any person who is a Christian, however dumb he may be in your eyes, is very wise because he has obeyed the gospel and has everlasting life. The day will come when you will see that to be true.

Have you ever been really stumped by a question someone asked you on the blog or on the street? If so, what question stumped you?

There are many questions I can't answer. One is why God allows suffering (it's not that suffering exists--the Bible explains it in that we live in a "fallen" creation). But why does God allow it? This is a mystery but it is not a dilemma to me. The day will come when we (those that love God) will have complete understanding. In the meanwhile, I trust Him with all of my heart, mind, soul and strength (almost every other question has a rational answer. I published something called The Evidence Bible that contains 100 of the most commonly asked question of the Christian faith).

What do you think of all of the atheist billboards that are going up across the USA?

I love them. They make people think about God.

Do you think that atheists and theists should try to coexist? Why or why not? How?

Yes, I think we should co-exist. There is a problem though. I regularly pray for atheists, buy them meals, send them money/vouches to restaurants, give them gifts, and yet they return hatred for my love. If you think I am exaggerating, Google my name and get ready for your ears to tingle. So the problem isn't with Christians--we love atheists. It's with the angry, militant, God-hating, God-blaspheming, God-denying atheist, who sees it as his mission in life to rid our country of any semblance of God. These folk meet regularly to talk about God and how He doesn't exist. They write books about Him. They hang around Christian blogs like bugs around a campfire. They put up billboards about God, and they see us as the enemy. So if a sword exists, it comes from your side, not ours.

Obviously, I have read your entire book (You Can Lead an Atheist To Evidence, but You Can't Make Him Think), given that on my blog I responded to something on almost every page. What books by modern biologists or atheists have you read? Have you read any to the same depth?

Evolution For Dummies (I'm sure some would say that that is an appropriate book for me). The Wild World of the Future talks about future evolution speculation, as opposed to the usual evolution speculation of past. The last book I read was the modern biologist's bible--On the Origin of Species. I read it from cover to cover and found it a difficult read because most of it is pretty boring. I have heard atheists say the same thing. However, thanks to our generous giveaway of a total of 205,000 copies, others can read for themselves what Darwin actually believed, and make up their own minds. Thanks for letting me give my side of the argument. Best wishes.

Labels: , ,

122 Comments:

Blogger Gord said...

Ziztur,

I am surprised that you asked him my question about Oktar... even I thought the question was too verbose and lacks a precise point. Much thanks though.


Ultimately, I would really want to see Oktar vs Comfort in a series of debate:

- Old Earth Creationism vs. New Earth Creationism, the evidence for either.

- Yahweh causing micro-"changes" within species in the last 6000 years to cause small finch and large albatross vs. Allah making everything as is including great danes and tiny chihuahuas. (and the evidence for either)


Personally, I think it is a waste of time to debate with creationists, what I like to see is creationists debate with other creationists to iron out all their inconsistencies and contradictions... though the audience members better have some mightily strong stomachs.

G

December 23, 2009 7:19 PM  
Anonymous Miss Lu said...

"There is a problem though. I regularly pray for atheists, buy them meals, send them money/vouches to restaurants, give them gifts,..."

Is he talking about atheists or the homeless?

December 24, 2009 12:34 PM  
Blogger Ziztur said...

Oh, he's talking about atheists. He's sent me (and others) gift cards to Red Lobster and signed copies of his book.

December 24, 2009 12:37 PM  
Blogger Petter Häggholm said...

…The modern biologist's bible--On the Origin of Species

Again, ignorance of such an astonishing depth that I cannot but think that it is affected and, therefore, deeply dishonest.

December 24, 2009 1:58 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

Hahaha 'No.'

How unlike Ray!

I like how he apparently read Origin so closely yet didn't notice that the 1 diagram in the book was missing.

December 25, 2009 5:38 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

It's always amusing to watch him dance.

December 25, 2009 6:58 PM  
Blogger IonnKorr said...

Nice Blog! Happy New Year!

by IonnKorr, Greece

December 27, 2009 2:14 PM  
Blogger Flimsyman said...

Thanks, IonnKorr! Wow, we've even got readers in Greece now!

December 28, 2009 12:37 PM  
Blogger ExPatMatt said...

The word "kind" is the biblical word for "species.".

And yet in his discussion with Thunderf00t he acknowledged that speciation occurs....

They guy doesn't have a clue, does he?

December 30, 2009 9:23 AM  
OpenID isitluck said...

I find Comfort fascinating. His deliveries are highly-polished. He clearly knows what he is doing, yet he is so profoundly mistaken about so many things.

I love that you asked him about that plagiarism accusation, and I love his response.

You might like my blog; I think we see eye to eye on a lot. Check it out: isitluck.wordpress.com

December 30, 2009 10:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

His on Leading atheist to evidence is so true. Even on this blog you have the people that say he is misinformed. I admit I don't know if everything he says is true. But the creationist do have valid points that have been admitted to by renowned evolutionists, yet almost all atheist refuse to look at the evidence objectively. JB Michigan

December 30, 2009 10:51 AM  
Blogger Flimsyman said...

We would all be very, very interested in hearing what arguments and claims of creationists cannot be answered by Biology.

That's actually one of the most entertaining things about debates like creationism vs. evolution - when Ziztur and I want to tackle a creationist argument, we go to the most widely published, quoted, and respected creationists and evangelicals. When a creationist wants to tackle evolution, they invariably go to laypersons, like you just did with our blog. Why aren't you asking biologists your questions?

December 30, 2009 12:07 PM  
Blogger estuckey said...

From Eric in SoCal:
The debate between evolutionists and creationists in not on the age of the Universe. Its established age is 14 billion years. There is a debate among creationists as to the young vs. old earth theories. For a good treatise on the subject read A Matter of Days by Hugh Ross. Or, look to his website, www.reasons.org

December 30, 2009 12:16 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

Wow I am impressed that Ray would link here. Usually he does all he can to ignore any discussion of the plagiarism.

You can see the 2 texts side by side right here.

http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Origin_of_Species_%282009%29#Accusations_of_plagiarism

December 30, 2009 12:29 PM  
Anonymous Jonathan said...

nice post

December 30, 2009 12:32 PM  
Blogger clamflats said...

Ziztur
We regular commenters on Rays' blog are jealous!

Ray is notoriously unresponsive on his own blog. He rarely answers questions asked of him. When he does repost a commenter's question, his answers run away to another issue altogether. His answers here stay pretty much on topic.

Ray says here, speaking of atheists, "and yet they return hatred for my love." There are atheist and skeptical commenters to his blog who are courteous and knowledgeable of evolution. They stick to challenging Ray's deliberate misrepresentation of ToE and his frequent logical fallacies.

If you get a chance to question Ray again you might ask him to provide a 4 or 5 sentence synopsis of ToE that demonstrates that he understands what the theory actually proposes. He has yet to prove that he does.

Classic Ray: I read it from cover to cover and found it a difficult read because most of it is pretty boring. <:)

December 30, 2009 12:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Let a biologist prove the creation of something living from something not living. Let a biologist prove how in the fossil record that man just appeared and not some long time drawn out existance. Let a biologist explain why the supposed tree of life does not exist anywhere in the world in the order it is presented. There are numerous things a biologist cannot explain. How did one atom become an amoeba become another form of life become two become three decifer between sexes. What animal did the first cell become and then the second and third. Impossible to have happened. The amoeba theory (born from nothing) becomes everything. Have a biologist explain dating of items without circular reasoning and predating to get a desired result. It is easy for atheist to attack creationist because we have to believe what we can't see. But atheist can't believe in what they see. JB Michigan

December 30, 2009 12:59 PM  
Blogger clamflats said...

@ JB Michigan
Your demands for proof and explanations reveal your profound misunderstanding of ToE.

You could try-
Google: UC Berkeley Evolution 101

Would you ask a car mechanic to explain internal combustion to you by demanding he prove how a hamster in a wheel could possibly move tons of metal at 65mph?

December 30, 2009 1:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am dumbfounded at the lack of actual intelligent debate on this blog. For people that want to debate the creation argument you sure don't have any answers. How about this? You Show one piece of evidence that creation cannot have happened and I'll show you one piece of evidence that evolution is B.S. spread by people who are trying to justify a job. And to do you one better because you do not have any scientific evidence I will only use scientific evidence and not theory and you can use what ever it is you want even including name calling and sticking your tongue out if needed. JB Michigan

December 30, 2009 1:32 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

Well JB, start with a Scientifically falisifiable theory of Creation.

December 30, 2009 1:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Man didn't evolve from anything. Lack of transitional fossil record. I'll even quote evolutionist fathers as proof. Quote #1: "It is as though they (fossils) were just planted there, without any evolutionary history. Needless to say this appearance of sudden planting has delighted creationists. ... Both schools of thought (Punctuationists and Gradualists) despise so-called scientific creationists equally, and both agree that the major gaps are real, that they are true imperfections in the fossil record. The only alternative explanation of the sudden appearance of so many complex animal types in the cambrian era is divine creation and (we) both reject this alternative." Richard Dawkins, "The blind Watchmaker. 1996 JB Michigan

December 30, 2009 1:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Big Bang Theory, Some one please give just one example of an explosion creating anything. JB Michigan

December 30, 2009 1:54 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

JB your posts are classic Straw Men. The Big Bang wasn't an 'explosion'.

And quote mining on works on simple children and proves to everyone else the quoteminers rampant dishonesty.

Give us a scientifically falsifiable theory of Creation.

December 30, 2009 1:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How About if I quote Charles Darwin or Stephen Gould. Would that give the credibility needed? Or are they classic straw men as you say? I just threw you a tidbit. Believe me I didn't enter this without plenty of reference material form your own evolutionary scientists. Just the evolutionary scientists, biologists, paleobiologists, physicists own quotes alone show that your own teachers will at least admit they have huge flaws in your theory. JB Michigan

December 30, 2009 2:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is no scientifically proven evidence to prove anything about creation to be false. JB Michigan

December 30, 2009 2:06 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

First of all, You don't prove the alternative by disproving something else.

2nd of all Quote mining scientists doesn't disprove anything. (Yes I am sure we are all aware that you can google 'creation quotemines').

You need to provide a scientifically falsifiable Theory of Creation and then show how it explains the evidence better than the alternatives.

Until you do that you are just being a spammy troll.

December 30, 2009 2:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ooh name calling already. I knew the immaturity would show through I just didn't think this fast. Sorry for giving you the added credit. We both know that I cannot prove the existence of GOD, but what I can do is show you how science is proving that the evidence in the Bible actually is proven to be possible. And that evolution cannot be true. JB Michigan

December 30, 2009 2:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Still ready or do you need to ask mommy first? JB Michigan

December 30, 2009 2:19 PM  
Blogger Flimsyman said...

If you quoteMINE Charles Darwin or Stephen J. Gould, you will only demonstrate that you're willing to lie (or are too lazy to check the arguments that you lift from creationist materials) to desperately try and make your case.

Even if you did have legitimate quotes, don't you understand that our acceptance of evolution as a valid and useful theory does NOT depend on the word of Charles Darwin? You could have an honest, unambiguous book of Charles Darwin's describing how evolution is impossible, and if the arguments and evidence are bad, we'll still dismiss them.

For example, even IF the Dawkins quote you give above weren't being distorted or misrepresented in any way, we wouldn't simply take his word for it. You creationists are the ones who simply take your leaders and scriptures as the final say in reality. We atheists/humanists/freethinkers, generally, don't. There is a reason that there is a logical fallacy named The Argument from Authority.

December 30, 2009 2:23 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

Please point out where I called you a name as opposed to just describing your actions.

It's been explained to you that Quote mining someone does nothing to prove that your scientific theory is correct over all others... but then you've not proposed an alternative scientific theory.

The longer you stall and don't give us one the less likely it seems you have the first clue of what science is. If you had valid arguments you wouldn't need to strawman the actual science now would you?

December 30, 2009 2:29 PM  
Blogger Flimsyman said...

"but what I can do is show you how science is proving that the evidence in the Bible actually is proven to be possible. And that evolution cannot be true."

Why don't you do that then, instead of simply repeating over and over again that you're right and we're wrong? We're all waiting for an actual argument or piece of evidence.

Oh, and by the way:

"There is no scientifically proven evidence to prove anything about creation to be false."

Since you refuse to attempt to give us a workable hypothesis of Creationism, I'll just go with "The Bible says so." In that case, what about the fact that the Bible states that the universe was not created until several thousand years AFTER humans domesticated dogs?

I mean . . . dude . . . do you ANY IDEA how many little talking points we could throw out to disprove Biblical creationism?

December 30, 2009 2:31 PM  
Blogger ExPatMatt said...

Spammy troll....or poe?

December 30, 2009 2:39 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

Perhaps. you could be right. He is awfully clichéd.

So far the approach has just been for JB to yell "Behind you! A Strawman!" then run away.

December 30, 2009 2:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well we can start from human population. Evolutionist claim man evolved from ape like creatures 4,000,000 years ago. They also say that recognizable man has been in existance for 100,000 years. If we were to say that a generation is 25 years apart, then there would be 4000 generations. If the total number of people on earth NEVER exceeded 1,000,000 at any one time in the past, then in 100,000 years a total of 4,000,000,000 people would have lived and died and been buried somewhere on earth. Based on evolutionary assumption we should be able to dig straight down anywhere and find a body. However only 300 Neanderthal skeletons have ever been found. JB Michigan

December 30, 2009 3:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I didn't leave. I'm at work so my time here is sporatic. JB Michigan I'll be back on at 5:15 from work and we can continue.

December 30, 2009 3:07 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

Sorry, what was that JB? Still refusing to present a Scientific Theory of Creationism for everyone to assess?

And in fact once again all you can do is conjure up a Straw-man instead?

This time one that doesn't even begin to make sense.

Setting aside that you just pulled all those numbers out of your butt.

Do you honestly think that that in 1 generation from now when the current 6 Billion people are dead that the next generation will be continuously digging through corpses?

And this doesn't have a single thing to do with 'evolution' in the first place.

If you want to play the population game then read up.

Start with "Creationists, Population Growth, Bunnies, and the Great Pyramid"

And see how the YEC model completely fails to fit anything we know about the population of the planet over the last 10,000 years.
http://ncse.com/cej/4/4/creationists-population-growth-bunnies-great-pyramid

December 30, 2009 3:18 PM  
Blogger Flimsyman said...

"Well we can start from human population. . . ."

A. Such creationist arguments always seem to ignore the fact that population doesn't progress in a direct, linear fashion, and . . . well . . . it's kind of moronic on the face of it to expect such a thing.

B. The main point here, of course, is the downright-fucking-hilarious prediction that people who died thousands of years ago and were burned or just tossed into the ground would somehow all be preserved. Really, man, even skeletons don't stick around for more than a few decades before becoming dust, at least under normal, natural conditions (the kind of conditions that the VAST, OVERWHELMING number of human bodies have been buried in throughout history). Seriously? You think that nature somehow mummifies all organisms when they die? Just . . . really, . . . how the fuck you could come to this conclusion?

Interestingly, we can turn this hilariously pathetic prediction of yours on it's head: Given the obvious and indisputable fact that the vast overwhelming majority of organisms decay completely and leave no corpse or fossil beyond a few years, and given the number of fossils that we HAVE found, the planet certainly cannot be a few thousand years old. If the Earth were only a few thousand years old, it would have been ridiculously over-crowded for the entirety of that history. This is the exact opposite of what we see, thus, creationism is false.

"I'll be back on at 5:15 from work and we can continue."

Ah, no problem. I never get online unless I have a bit of free time at work, myself. I tend to have better things to do in the evenings and over the weekends, like staggering amounts of premarital sex. ;)

December 30, 2009 3:36 PM  
Blogger ITs All About Jesus!!! said...

As usual, Ray Comfort is right 'on the mark' with the truth. No evidence in the fossil to support evolution.

Its noteworthy to say that evolution has never been anything more than a "theory". No evidence has been produced to qualify it as a ... S C I E N C E. The atheists prefer to believe in a fairy tale.

December 30, 2009 4:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is very funny the 2 idiots I was talking to were obviously a couple of social misfits that say they are atheists to make them feel better about themselves. Trying to stand for something. Staggering amounts of premarital sex with your mothers picture maybe. Yes I just lowered myself to his level. I should have pulled out the crayons to get through to these two. That's what I get for trying to treat some of these people as intelligent. Being an atheist kind of proves the whole lack of intelligent thought anyway. JB Michigan

December 30, 2009 4:27 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

May I introduce everyone to Terry Burton.

Possibly one of the more interesting people you will ever meet online.

At various times Terry has claimed:
Darwin was a womanizing hash smoker and an outcast from society.
That all the above was recorded in the Beagle's log Book.
This evidence was then stolen by Richard Dawkins.
Kent Hovind is not in Jail.
The Philadelphia Experiment was real.

He 'maintains' 90 odd different blogs and a handful of sock puppets. Please spare yourself from browsing the blogs.
Seems to love taking photos of himself and manipulating them in Paint.

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2045774240053119197GJOmci
http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/49/l_54740e6a98c657af3e2f75e75de694bb.jpg

December 30, 2009 4:31 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

Again JB flees from presenting a single coherent Theory for people to assess. And his best response to the rebuttals on his straw men arguments is to call people idiots.

The Christian love and fruits of the spirit just radiate from you JB.

December 30, 2009 4:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No running from anything, but reluctant to have conversation or debate with 2 children that can only run their mouth. Age of Earth, population, age dating, can all be proven inconsistent with evolution and consistent with the Bible, but doesn't do any good when you just sit and heckle and talk shit. I would really like to have this conversation face to face with you. If you want to have ahonest conversation we can if not go crawl back up your mothers skirt. JB Michigan

December 30, 2009 4:43 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

Really? You still have failed to show where I called names. Along with the failure to present any sort of Scientific Theory of Creation.

You started off quote mining. And when you were called on that resorted to just making stuff up. And now you are pretending that all we are doing is insulting you while ignoring the bulk of the responses.

If you are going to refuse to present any sort of coherent theory for us to look at then at least provide reasonable sources for the numbers you gave previously.

I would love to see you take on the population one. But make sure you read that article first because it's the first thing I will refer to if you try and use a constant growth rate over any substantial period time without a good justification.

Or you can keep pretending that all we are doing is insulting you, it's a pity our comments haven't been deleted and are there for anyone to see otherwise.

December 30, 2009 4:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The age of the Earth: In the solar system we have short period comets. regardless of their initial size, they lose about 5% of their mass each time they orbit the sun. Obviously it would require only about 20 to 25 orbits to destroy any short period comets. No known, visible or proven source of new comets exists andall shortt period comets would be destroyed in less than 10 thousand years. since short period comets still exist we can reasonably assume the earth is less than 10000 years old. jb

December 30, 2009 5:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

fossils are created quickly not over millions of years. proof : artifacts of hammers and hats found fossilized

December 30, 2009 5:25 PM  
Blogger Ziztur said...

Citation needed. Cite something other than Answers in Genesis or some other creation faith-tank.

December 30, 2009 5:26 PM  
Blogger Ziztur said...

P.S. Short period comets are comets that are destroyed in less than 200 years. I guess this should be taken as proof that the earth (?) is less than 200 yrs old.

December 30, 2009 5:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

charles darwin wrote in origins that the lack of transitional fossils were, in fact, the greatest problem for his theory. in 1979, Dr. ColnPattersonwrote a letter containing this statement: "I fully agree with your comments on the direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any fossil or living, I would have certainly included them". Even evolutionist admit they don't exist. JB

December 30, 2009 5:32 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

JB you need to get newer creationist notes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuiper_belt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oort_cloud

Should we expect see 'the seas aren't salty enough' next?

December 30, 2009 5:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The fact that it is mathematically impossible to align the DNA chromosomes tocreate oneperfect being is astronomical, but to create such a large number of different species on mathematical probability is all but impossible.

December 30, 2009 5:37 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

We've already been over quote mining. Granted that was amazingly half hearted.

Remember you are meant to be presenting your own Scientific Theory and showing how it represents the evidence better than current science does.

How about finishing a discussion point before running onto something else?

December 30, 2009 5:37 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

Oh it appears we have Gish Gallop.

December 30, 2009 5:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

All those facts in your head and you still refuse to .have an intelligent conversation

December 30, 2009 5:38 PM  
Blogger Ziztur said...

I refer you to the Quote Mine Project by TalkOrigins.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/project.html

December 30, 2009 5:39 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

JB you are the one changing the topic every post (hence the Gish Gallop).

You are the one who doesn't want to discuss anything.

December 30, 2009 5:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I wasn't talking to you, you've proven yourself to be nothing more than a babbling idiot. I was blogging with zitzer

December 30, 2009 5:40 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

Really? You've run from everything I've said.

If I am a babbling idiot, what does that say about the person who can't refute a single thing he's said and instead runs away from every discussion point?

December 30, 2009 5:42 PM  
Blogger Ziztur said...

If you're talking to someone in particular, then address someone in particular.

December 30, 2009 5:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

zitzer, you seem like arational person. Is there any proof of any evolutionist theory? JB

December 30, 2009 5:43 PM  
Blogger Ziztur said...

I've written about this a lot actually, so rather than reinvent the wheel, please refer to:

http://www.ziztur.com/labels/Harrub.html

(This is in blog post format so I would suggest starting at the bottom - the top is where the series ends, the bottom is where it begins.)

December 30, 2009 5:46 PM  
OpenID calladus said...

JB - Darwin had a habit of asking a question, and then giving the answer. Creationist quote miners love to quote the question that Darwin asks, and then leave off Darwin's answer.

Tell me, do you think this is an honest way to show that Darwin was wrong?

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/part2.html#quote2.6

December 30, 2009 5:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

O.K. thanks, so what's your take on all the evidence refuting evolution?

December 30, 2009 5:53 PM  
Blogger Ziztur said...

Much of my take on "the evidence refuting evolution" is also contained in the link above, but I would be willing to entertain discussing a specific refutation.

I also agree with Bathtub - I'd like to see your scientifically falsifiable theory of creation. I am sure you're aware that poking holes in any given creation theory is not proof of evolution. Similarly, poking holes in evolution is not proof of your particular creation theory.

December 30, 2009 5:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't think Darwin is necessarily wrong in all aspects. He himself knew there were severe weaknesses in his own theories. Aspects such as the organs no longer usedin the body was proven wrong ex.(pituitary gland, adrenal gland, pancreas, etc.). I'm quoting what he said about his own theories and since questions raised bydarwin followers. Somehow this is dishonest. I knew I was treading into unwanted territory when I came to this site. I'm just looking for the truth. I've been on hear 2 hours and I am still no closer to the quetion I have. What evidence can prove creation wrong or impossible? Wha evidence is there proves evolution as a science and not just a theory? Doesn't seem like any body can answer. JB

December 30, 2009 6:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Bible is my proof. I just want one proven fact of the Bible being wrong. JB

December 30, 2009 6:06 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

In your opinion JB what is the single biggest peice of evidence that refutes evolution?

And I mean the actual Theory of Evolution. Not Cosmology, The Big Bang, Abiogenesis, or some other tangential scientific theory.

Again the cliche 'just a theory' when Theory is the highest acceptance possible just belies your understanding of science.

Are you now trying to say that Darwin thought Vestigial meant useless? Or that Vestigial means useless? Because it doesn't and Darwin didn't think so either.

December 30, 2009 6:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was wondering if Small Pox was God's will?

Mr. Comfort answered your question "What is the Gospel?" His answer does not reflect the vast majority of Christian communities or most of the historic views of the Gospel. It reflects his "opinion" or "point of view". He said see the Gospel of John, may I suggest he read it as well. His view that God needed to kill his son in order to satisfy his anger is one view of the atonement.

On Mr. Comfort's blog he and others have said we are born separated from God. That denotes "original sin", think on that for a second, every single child baby fetus etc is an enemy of God created by God but separate and condemned to eternal torture, unless you can understand and accept "Ray's version" of God's will as revealed through a 2000 year old document which produces thousands of interpretations which often contradict.

For example the Gospel of Mathew and the Epistle of Paul to the Roman's, the Author of Hebrews, and the Epistle of James. Then Mr. Comfort discusses the 10 commandments, first which set of the commandments, then he brings in the Commandments of Jesus, which are very clear about who is saved and not according to Mathew 25. It says nothing about belief in, accepting Jesus etc. Of course that is side stepped with rhetoric and apologetic hat dancing.

Dont believe me read his blog, look at the gospels and epistles for yourself. Oh and if you happen to be a "Christian" and disagree with Mr. Comfort you are a false convert, liar, or crazy. Yes Mr. Comfort some of us take great offense at having our love for God mocked, just like you do.

Brian

December 30, 2009 6:09 PM  
Blogger Ziztur said...

Darwin was a guy who published a book on evolutionary theory 150 years ago. Darwin's work is outdated. I would suggest looking to more modern biology texts for explanations of evolution.

We can't even attempt to prove creation wrong or impossible until you give us a scientifically falsifiable theory of creation - which is why we keep asking for it.

I really cannot succinctly, as a layperson, tell you what evidence is there that proves evolution is a science and not just a theory, without writing a book. Many people have done a much better job at that than I ever could, especially in the comments section of a blog.

Given that there are already books on the subject, it would be prudent of you to read those books by those experts.

Have you ready any books on evolution? I understand why it might be frustrating to come here for 2 hours looking for answers and feel like you haven't found any, but honestly, there are better resources than this blog.

December 30, 2009 6:10 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

Well I am still waiting for you to present a single coherent theory of Creation for people to look at. The bible wasn't even under discussion.

But if you insist. How about the multitude of plants that are older than you probably think the entire universe is?

How about all the plants that are older than you probably think the universe is?

10,000 year old spruce trees
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Tjikko

80,000 year old Aspens
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pando_(tree)

December 30, 2009 6:14 PM  
Blogger Ziztur said...

I could even email you .pdf's of a few good books on evolution if you'd like.

December 30, 2009 6:15 PM  
OpenID intepid.com said...

"I regularly pray for atheists, buy them meals, send them money/vouches to restaurants, give them gifts, and yet they return hatred for my love."

Aww... they bite the hand that patronizes them? How mean!

I only started to hate Ray when I realized what a disingenuous sack of shit he was (as opposed to being simply ignorant). His tactic of accusing people of "blind faith" in accepting geological dating methods is appalling, since he wouldn't know the scientific method if it punched him in the crotch.

December 30, 2009 6:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am going to provide my take. Fossilization has been proven to happen at a rapid rate not over millions of years. Ex: Bowlers cap, hammer, iron pots. Carbon dating has been proven false. Radiometric dating when done dated a mollusk had died 20000 years before yet it was still alive. All evolution theories are based on the theory that things evolve over long periods of time. The two prrofs that are used prove themselves very unreliable. No transitional fossils, false dating, mathematical probabilities prove evolution to be false. As far as creation, remains to be seen. Because I can't see GOD, but I can't see any of the inert gasses either. Jb

December 30, 2009 6:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Bible is a historical document of accounts of the times. It isn't based on theory. So to come up with a falsifiable theory on creation is impossible. JB

December 30, 2009 6:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How can someone supposedly prove the earth billions of years old when noone was there and also the dating teechniques have been proven unreliable.?

December 30, 2009 6:29 PM  
Blogger Deloceano said...

Hi Zitzur - thanks for you blog!

I have posted a follow up to my thoughts on Rays claims of "loving" atheists, and being met in return with hatered - it's on my Blog, Olas y Reflexiones, here:

http://olasyreflexiones.blogspot.com/2009/12/sad-interpretation-of-love.html

I don't want to take up too much space on your blog, so given it's length won't copy and paste, but feel free to drop on over and have a look, or if it's cool to post a really long reply, let me know and I'll stick it up here too.

Again, great blog. Thanks
Deloceano.

December 30, 2009 6:35 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

So your single best of evidence is yet another gallop without a single shred of evidence?

The mineralization examples you give are well known and are understood.

Carbon dating has not been proven false. If this was a thread about the dead sea scrolls you would be all over about how accurate it is. If a Cross of Jesus was discovered tomorrow, you and every other Christian would be using Carbon Dating to prove it's age.

Radiometric Dating (separate from Carbon Dating) has specific uses and known limits. Again people know that dating living & water based life doesn't work. It's like measuring your Shoe size in 'diameters of the earth'.

Generally speaking all fossils are transitional. If you want to be more specific I can be more specific.

"There are millions of transitional forms in the fossil record. Millions" - Ray Comfort Oct 2009

December 30, 2009 6:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you Zitzur, As far as evolution the books I have read prove that there is an agenda to prove at all costs or an agenda to disprove at all costs. To me it comes down to what can be proven or disproven. At this point creation is the only thing that can explain the sudden appearance of human fossils, until aliens show up and say They put us here or evolution has scientific proof I have to lean toward creation. If creation was all bull, it should be easily disproven which it has not been. So I'm sure you can understand where this leaves me standing. JB

December 30, 2009 6:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

show me 5 pictures of transitional species to species fossils and I'll carry the flag for you.

December 30, 2009 6:42 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

Here's one list. Take your pick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils

The two species of transtitional flat fishes are amongst my favourites

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/

Here is a great video featuring predicted and then discovered transtitional fossils.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_Dad_GhkT4

Including transitional frogs/Salamanders
Transitional Turtles (half shell)
Transitional snakes (snakes with hind legs/hips)
Transitional Bats
Transitional Sirenians (Dugongs/Manatees)

December 30, 2009 6:54 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

Here are the discovered fossil snakes with hind limbs
Najash
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najash

Haasiophis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haasiophis

Pachyrhachis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachyrhachis

Eupodophis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eupodophis

December 30, 2009 6:57 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

Oh and if it matters the Author of that video
http://www.youtube.com/user/standup4REALscience

Is a Christian, so you don't have to watch icky Atheist videos, he just also happens to have a great video series on Evolution.

http://www.anevolvingcreation.net/standup/

December 30, 2009 7:06 PM  
Blogger Ziztur said...

JB, could you please be more specific about the books on evolution you have read? I would like you to give me titles with author names.

If I stated that all of the theist/creation books I had read "prove that there is an agenda to prove at all costs or an agenda to disprove at all costs." you would probably be quite unconvinced at my ability to reason and look objectively at evidence that is presented to me. Remember, we're skeptics and critical thinkers: we reject vague answers.

Here is my list of books I have read cover to cover:
The Blind Watchmaker (Dawkins)
Unweaving the Rainbow (Dawkins)
The Pony Fish's Glow (Williams)
Darwin's Dangerous Idea (Dennett)
Counter-Creationism Handbook (Isaak)

Here's my list of pro-Christian books read cover to cover:
You Can Lead an Atheist... (Comfort)
The Case for Faith/creator (Strobel)
Mere Christianity (Lewis)
The Design Revolution (Dembski)
I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist (Geisler)
The Bible (in many versions)

Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview (Moreland & Craig, but I haven't finished this yet)

We can't prove creation is bull until you give us a falsifiable theory. One of the most important aspects of the scientific method is having falsifiability. If coming up with a falsifiable theory of creation is impossible, then your theory is not scientific.

"Theory" by the way, in science, does not mean, "someone's best guess or speculation". It means "a coherent group of general propositions used as principals of explanation for a class of facts". In this case, some of the most basic facts are that life has been on earth for 200 billion years, that lifeforms have changed throughout time that species are related via common descent, and that natural selection is a significant factor in how species change. The "theory" part is that all of the facts of evolution form a coherent group of general propositions. "Theory" in science is something that is stronger than mere fact - it is a unification of the facts.

Falsifiability is very important because without it, people can pretty much claim anything they want, and one cannot differentiate between competing hypothesis because evidence can neither prove nor disprove them.

Maybe that helps. I hope so?

December 30, 2009 7:42 PM  
Blogger Deloceano said...

Zitzur, I'd add to tyour list:
Climbing Mount Improbable; and
The Greatest Show on Earth.

Both by Dawkins. Especially, for a creationist, TGSOE.. I know that Christians have trouble even picking up a book by Dawkins, but this is very different from The God Delusion, and also very different from his other books on evolution.

In TGSOE, Dawkins is not attacking religion. He even states things that he has in common with several clergy friends of his, so it's not an anti religion book. However it differs from hies previous scientific books, in that in those previous books, Dawkins has said that he just kind of took for granted that his readers accepted the fact of evolution, and those books were more about discussing various mechanisms of natural selection. In TGSOE, he has realised the staggering number of people (in the US of A) who deny the facts, and thought it high time to lay out in clear, unambiguous language, the evidence that evolution is a fact. And by doing so, I think he would be a great read for CHristians who wish to try and understand a little the body of science that they purport to know better than.

As for your list of books by Christian authors, good to see. I think it's important that we atheists show that we are not arguing against something we have no understanding of, as that would be hypocritical.

What a lot of Christians on these blgs seem to struggle with is that we are well read in Christian apologetics and theology. Myself, I would struggle to remember all the books I have read from a christian perspective (several but nt all from your list and many others), and having grown up for 23 years in a fundo house, holding fundo beliefs, i think the accusation of arguing against something we don't understand is severely unfounded.

I would challenge Christians to gain as deep an understanding of other viewpoints as many atheists have of christianity.

Fuck, I'd challenge many christians to gain as good an understanding of christianity as many atheists have of christianity.

December 30, 2009 8:05 PM  
Blogger Ziztur said...

Well, I actually have read Climbing Mount Improbable also, and want TGSOE but have not picked it up yet. If we were to include the atheist and science books I've read, the list would become substantially longer. My library is actually pretty absurd. :)

he only Christians I know who has picked up and read several atheist books is Pastor Keith, who contributes to this blog. He's Read Breaking the Spell (Dennett) and God: The Failed Hypothesis (Stenger) for sure, since he came to my book club to discuss them. He may have read some others as well, but he definitely separates himself from the pack by having read them and gained an understanding of where atheists are coming from.

December 30, 2009 8:15 PM  
Blogger Deloceano said...

Yes, a few Christians I know do the same thing - but invariably they are the ones who are already much more open minded, and several of them, once embarking on such honest intellectual inquiry (myself included a decade or so ago) have actually been shocked to learn that their way of seeing the world, the absolute truth they have been taught to believe, is indeed not the whole story, and through a process of discovery, sometimes painful but always liberating, have come to abandon their faith in something that when examined with a really open mind, just doesn't stand up to the scrutiny.

I have a friend who is still a minister, but has come t a point of no longer being able to believe. He is in the dilemma, as his livelihood and his family would crumble around him if he "came out" as a atheist, but the alternative is to keep preaching what he knows to be untrue.

I salute your friend Pastor Keith. He sounds like someone who one could have good conversation with. I really want to reald Breaking the spell btw, maybe we should swap books! :) (TGSOE for Dennet).

December 30, 2009 8:27 PM  
Blogger Ziztur said...

Weeeeeeeellll - Deloceano, email me!

December 30, 2009 8:45 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

Deloceano, I am sure Dan Dennett would be interested in talking to your friend, if he isn't already.

December 30, 2009 8:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear "JB"

human population

This claim assumes that the population growth rate was always constant, which is a false assumption. Wars and plagues would have caused populations to drop from time to time. In particular, population sizes before agriculture would have been severely limited and would have had an average population growth of zero for any number of years.


short period comets

The comets that entered the inner solar system a very long time ago indeed have evaporated. However, new comets enter the inner solar system from time to time. The Oort Cloud and Kuiper Belt hold many comets deep in space, beyond the orbit of Neptune, where they do not evaporate. Occasionally, gravitational perturbations from other comets bump one of them into a highly elliptical orbit, which causes it to near the sun.

Quick Fossilization

The creationist claim that radiometric dates are inconsistent rest on a relatively few (sometimes non-existent) examples. Creationists ignore the vast majority of radiometric dates showing consistent results.

~T.O.

December 30, 2009 11:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Deloceano, I think there is a logic problem with your comment about absolute truth. All "TRUTH" is absolute, or it is just opinion. Relativity may work for Einstein, but not so much for Darwin, :)I'm quoting from memory, but Darwin said at one time, that if the TOE was applied to social science, that it would be a horrible thing. He was right about that ! Hitler used the theory to rationalize his killing of "undesirables". So I think Truth as a category is a very serious thing. Please don't anyone remind me of all the people killed "In the name of a Diety". That's a horse, beaten, bloodied, and very much dead. Maybe even fossilized, :)Many people have been killed for no good reason at all. Namely, everyone not killed because of a god. I digress, I know. My point is, relative truth is not truth. Talk about " long story, short, LOL. Cheers,

JC not JB

December 31, 2009 12:43 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hitler used the theory to rationalize his killing of "undesirables".

No. Darwin's theory was evolution through natural selection. Hitler (who banned Darwin's books and the teaching of his theory) did the selecting not nature. It's the opposite of Darwin's theory.

As Hitler wrote:
"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

~O.T.

December 31, 2009 1:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And let me add, evolution through natural selection is a description of how nature is, not a prescription on how to act.

~O.T.

December 31, 2009 1:59 AM  
Blogger Malimar said...

"You would think that somebody would consider that, while Newton described the acceleration of falling bodies accurately, it does not imply in any way that he he advocated pushing people off of tall buildings." - PZ Myers

December 31, 2009 3:27 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am a fan of Ray Comfort and wanted to say thanks for conducting a fair interview. It's great to see Christians and atheists have a conversation without being hostile.

December 31, 2009 8:35 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you want to debate a Creationist you should call Ken Ham's orgainzation and ask one of their Biologist to do the debate. That would be good. No one ever does that.

December 31, 2009 12:03 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

Debates rarely achieve anything. Especially Oral ones. What they need to do is start publishing Science Papers. But that ties back into the requirement to propose a testable theory again.

December 31, 2009 12:14 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

JB will no doubt be excited of another plant older than the universe has been discovered.

A 13,000 year old Jurapa Oak in CA.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scrubby-oak-lauded-as-oldest-known-living-organism-1848009.html

That puts it on par with the Box Holly in PA, or a Eucalyptus in Australia, Or the Creosote Bush in CA

Older we have:
The Kings Lomatia in Tasmania is around 43,000 years old.
Pando the Quaking Aspen as mentioned about is about 80,000 (and possibly much more) years old.
And a colony of Posidonia oceanica in the mediteranian is thought to be about 100,000 years old.

Then of course there is the Jellyfish that is essentially immortal. Turritopsis nutricula, so who knows how old it is.

December 31, 2009 3:34 PM  
Blogger Yepot said...

We could argue and debate all day back and forth about creation vs evolution and yet walk away with our orginal belief and the real winner in the eyes of pepole will be who was the better debater,but may I suggest everyone to take the challenge Ray Comfort puts out there which bypasses the intellect and examine our motives, thoughts and intents of the heart, to Gods moral law of the Holy Bible. Be honest with what your conscience bears witness against you.

December 31, 2009 5:13 PM  
Blogger Malimar said...

You're not going to get very far with that tactic. Our consciences tell us that the god of the bible is an oppressive, vindictive bully, prone to temper tantrums and fits of abject insanity, who demands strict adherence to pointless, nonsensical rules to satisfy his petty, ridiculous whims. It is a very good thing that this asshole tyrant does not actually exist, else would would be morally obligated to rise up against him.

December 31, 2009 5:21 PM  
Anonymous S.M. said...

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing'but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.For it is written:I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;the intelligence of the intelligent i will frustrate.Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has God not made foolish the wisdom of the world?For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him,God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.(1 cor.1:18-21) S.M.

January 1, 2010 9:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe?
YHWH was pleased with the stupidity of what was preached because people believed it?
-T.O.

January 2, 2010 4:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm proud of Ray because of his genuine love for people, which reflects his genuine love for Jesus. He gives out gifts and spends time thinking about and praying for atheists. If you read this, Ray Comfort, you are a hero. I encourage you, keep on looking at Jesus.

-Vlad-

January 3, 2010 9:54 PM  
Anonymous Zzzst said...

He's raking in the money, left, right and center.

http://raytractors.blogspot.com/2008/08/piety-of-ray-little-web-sleuthing.html

January 3, 2010 11:55 PM  
Blogger Malimar said...

If Ray Comfort actually loved people, he would abandon Christianity and religion in general, which have track records miles long of causing huge amounts more suffering than they alleviate, and stop trying to cockblock science, which has a proven record of actually successfully helping people.

There's some debate on this blog as to whether Ray Comfort is genuinely dumb enough to believe his own ludicrous claims, or is simply dishonest enough to keep peddling his drivel long after it was clearly proven to him to be utter hogwash. I personally think the truth is somewhere in the middle, and Upton Sinclair's principle applies: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it".

January 4, 2010 1:35 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Zzzst, Jesus said, "It is more blessed to give than to receive" (Acts 20; 35). Because Ray gives he receives more from God. Besides, what is this world's riches compared to the riches of heaven. Ray's love for people is reflected off his love for Jesus. It's because he's Christian that he loves. It's because he gives that he is blessed.

I agree science helped people; however, I know evolution/atheism has never helped anyone. Atheism makes people arrogant and immoral. Atheists are haters, they can't love. I can truly say evolution has done nothing for science. Evolution never helped anyone find anything new about science. Evolution is fallible science. (exclude: variations within kinds, this happens, and can be tested/observed). All other evolution is pseudo.

~Vlad~

January 5, 2010 11:40 AM  
Blogger Malimar said...

"I know evolution/atheism has never helped anyone. Atheism makes people arrogant and immoral. Atheists are haters, they can't love. I can truly say evolution has done nothing for science. Evolution never helped anyone find anything new about science."

BWAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
...teehee.

Yes, because the theory of evolution by natural selection isn't the basis of all of modern medical science or anything. And clearly atheists are incapable of love, and never form committed relationships or work to make the world a better place. Of course Ziztur and Flimsy are only together for the hot sex, and they're only getting married for the sake of spitting in the face of your religious traditions (also, mooching off the tax benefits). And obviously the Richard Dawkins Foundation doesn't exist, an atheist charity is the most ludicrous idea imaginable.

January 5, 2010 3:35 PM  
Blogger Ziztur said...

@Vlad

Gee, and you probably think Christians are persecuted, too.

Wouldn't it be bigoted and prejudice of me to say, "Christianity has never helped anyone. Christianity makes people arrogant and immoral. Christians are haters, they can't love"?

We just want to be treated with equal rights. How can you say that about another group of human beings with a straight face?

January 5, 2010 3:46 PM  
Blogger Ziztur said...

P.S. There are probably more atheists in your church congregation than there are on this blog.

January 5, 2010 3:47 PM  
Blogger Flimsyman said...

Hi, Vlad! Interesting claims! Let's take a look.

As for Ray's "love for people," he insults people and calls them liars constantly.

True, many people also call Ray a liar, but I think that it's important to point out that we can PROVE that many things that Ray says are not true. For an easy example, he said in our interview that "birds" are a species, and that speciation does not occur. Both of these claims are untrue, and can furthermore be reasonably classed as "lies" because people have corrected him in plain language many, many times on his blog.

Ray, on the other hand, claims that nobody actually disbelieves in God. He actually states that everybody believes in his God, but people lie because they wish to behave immorally. This is not only grossly illogical, it is grossly insulting.

Let me put it this way - what would you think of me if I insisted that I loved Christians but also insisted that no Christian actually believes in God? What would you think of me if I insisted that people only claim to believe in God because they want a powerful deity to forgive their immoral behavior, thus allowing them to behave immorally? Wouldn't you find that incredibly insulting? Would you believe that I "love" Christians if I insisted on stating this all the time? This is exactly what Ray does to atheists!

"Atheism makes people arrogant and immoral."

Only if you define "morality" exclusively as obedience to your God, which would be bigotry.

"Atheists are haters, they can't love."

Oh, wow. So Ziztur and I, who just recently got engaged and are working on our wedding plans, do NOT love each other? We are only capable of hating each other? HOLY SHIT, MAKES PERFECT SENSE. *facepalm*

Do you really expect to be taken seriously when you just insult us like this? Would you take someone seriously if they just came up to you and said this kind of shit to you?

"Evolution never helped anyone find anything new about science."

This is hilariously dead wrong. All of modern biology is based entirely on evolution. Are you really saying that biology is a useless field of science?

A really damn easy example (out of many really easy examples I could give) is vaccines. The very existence of vaccines depends entirely on evolution theory, because if organisms like flu viruses don't change dramatically over several generations, we wouldn't need completely new vaccines developed each year to combat the new strains.

This specific application of evolution theory, coupled with an ethically humanistic motivation, has literally saved hundreds of thousands or millions of lives.

January 5, 2010 3:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Flimsyman,

"As for Ray's "love for people," he insults people and calls them liars constantly."

This is true. Ray calls people liars because the same people are under their own account for calling themselves liars. I don't believe Ray judged anyone, it's the person's conscience judging him/her. *Applause to Flimsyman for taking it out of context*

If you're an Atheist, yourself, how would you define morality? -you have no standard of right and wrong. You do what you think is right. So if I follow your views, I will say, "I will find you and shoot you." I can shoot you because I think it's right. Imagine the world like this. Every person thinks they are right. Chaos.

"All of modern biology is based entirely on evolution. Are you really saying that biology is a useless field of science?"

It is incredibly easy for you to take things out of context. Maybe if you studied biology (the study of life) you would see that biology has nothing to do with evolution. Do you understand the word evolution has many meaning, one of which is scientific. Cosmic evolution, Chemical evolution, Stellar and Planetary evolution, Organic evolution, Macro-evolution, and Micro-evolution (variations within kinds). The first 5 are purely religious, they are fairy tales for grown-ups. Micro-evolution is seen everyday.
Biology would be better off without the teaching of religious evolutionism (less things to memorize). Biology is not useless. I think studying life is fascinating, studying origins is pushing it. Studying origins is not science.

"The very existence of vaccines depends entirely on evolution theory, because if organisms like flu viruses don't change dramatically over several generations, we wouldn't need completely new vaccines developed each year to combat the new strains."

Perfect example of micro-evolution. Can a virus ever become a dog, or an elephant. No. Even an 8 year-old knows there are LIMITS. You cannot have a crocodile produce a bird (who would the bird mate with? anyways). I believe birds have a common ancestor--a bird. I believe dogs have a common ancestor--a dog.
-No intermediate forms of between different animal groups (period).

~Vlad~

January 6, 2010 4:46 PM  
Blogger Malimar said...

Yeah, this guy's blathering is such ludicrously cliched, by-the-book, blatantly counterfactual creationist drivel that I'm going to go ahead and call Poe. Well done, you had us going for a little while there.

January 6, 2010 5:00 PM  
Blogger Flimsyman said...

Yeah, a Poe is likely, but I'm still going to indulge them. ;)

"I don't believe Ray judged anyone, it's the person's conscience judging him/her. *Applause to Flimsyman for taking it out of context*"

I'm not sure what your point is, here. My point was simply that Ray isn't going to get people to listen to him very well if his main debate tactic is to insult the people he's trying to convert.

"If you're an Atheist, yourself, how would you define morality? -you have no standard of right and wrong."

This is just idiotic. Have you ever looked at whether Christians or atheists behave more ethically? There's no evidence at all that Christians commit fewer crimes, etc. than atheists. I take morality to mean the best interests of people's safety and freedom. Of course we can make statements about what is and is not moral within this framework.

I can just as easily say, "If you're a theist, yourself, how would you define morality, except as the whim of your diety? -you have no standard of right and wrong. You do whatever you think your god says. So if I follow your views, I will say, "I will find you and shoot you if my god says so." I can shoot you because my god thinks it's right. Imagine the world like this."

"It is incredibly easy for you to take things out of context. Maybe if you studied biology (the study of life) you would see that biology has nothing to do with evolution."

Why do you keep claiming that I've taken things out of context? Nothing is taken out of context here. You claimed that evolution is useless, and I pointed out that virtually all of modern biology is based on evolution, and that biology is certainly not useless. Even if you disagree, nothing is out of context here.

"Do you understand the word evolution has many meaning, one of which is scientific."

This is a red herring and strawman. The word "evolution" does have many possible variations of meaning, but only in a vernacular context. What we're discussing here is obviously the Theory of Biological Evolution. Cosmic evolution, Chemical evolution, etc., as you call them, are not scientific theories, and they're not being taught as scientific theories, and no one here is advocating that they are. The theory of Evolution ONLY has to do with biology.

As for "macro-" and "micro-evolution," I repeat, THE MECHANISMS THAT DRIVE THE LATTER ALSO DRIVE THE FORMER. The ONLY difference between macro and micro is the scale involved.

"Even an 8 year-old knows there are LIMITS."

Hahahahaha. You can indoctrinate a young child in creationism, and you think that this disproves evolution theory? Hilarious.

This is the merry-go-round with creationists. You can end the debate here and now, conclusively, by telling us one simple thing: WHAT IS THAT LIMIT? Since there's no material difference that I (or the entire scientific community) can determine between your macro- and micro-evolutions, all you have to do is demonstrate that where that barrier is and how it occurs.

Usually, what happens at this point is that you'll respond with "kinds," just like the Bible says. We'll point out that "kind" is not a scientific definition, and is therefore useless in describing this mysterious barrier that you talk about. Then, one of two things will happen - either you'll hem and haw and clearly demonstrate that you're unable to give a scientific equivalent to "kind," or, like Ray, simply say that "kind" is equivalent to "species." Of course, this will destroy your argument, because we have observed speciation many times.

January 8, 2010 9:48 AM  
Blogger Malimar said...

Incidentally, the morality thing is something I have fun with, so I kind of want to respond to that particular argument, too, despite the probable Poe-ness. It is a common argument. One obvious counterargument is that any statistic you care to find clearly demonstrate a correlation between immoral behaviour (e.g., crime) and religion. This is not necessarily a causal relationship (it could be that crime causes religion, or that poverty and lack of education cause both crime and religion), but it definitely rules out the idea that atheists are less moral than theists.

But that's not what I want to cover. what I want to cover is something that's already been rehashed to death in various threads here but I'm not done beating the dead horse yet (mostly because I haven't much commented on (3), below, before this post): On this blog, there are basically three competing points of view in terms of morality. They boil down to this:

(1) Moral behaviour is in my own best interests. What is moral is what is best for everybody, which happens to then make things better for me. This has some flaws (mostly in the seeming implications that it's okay to do whatever I want as long as I can get away with it, but that sort of thing tends to destabilize society and leads to things being worse for everybody and thus worse for me, so this turns out to be less of a problem than it seems), but it has the benefits of (a) being consistent and (b) providing an actual concrete reason to be moral. This is the view espoused by me, Malimar.

(2) There is an absolute Platonic ideal morality that it is the right thing to do to follow. This has the problems that (c) it doesn't provide a reason to be moral other than begging the question, and (d) there's no actual evidence in favor of the idea that such an absolute morality exists. However, this has the benefits that it is (a) consistent (at least in the sense that it seems to boil down to one or two rules, such as "suffering is bad" or "human life has value") and (e) largely achieves results congruous with (1) above, so I think it's basically okay, despite a certain lack of rigor to it. This is the point of view espoused most consistently on this blog by Flimsyman. Apologies if I've misrepresented your position, Flimsy, I just can't recall ever getting a satisfying (to me) answer out of you regarding objections (c) or (d).

(3) The right thing to do is whatever my imaginary friend wants me to do. This has the benefit of (b) providing a reason (i.e., my imaginary friend will punish me if I don't), but it winds up being (f) totally arbitrary and inconsistent and (d) there's, again, no actual evidence to believe it is true. This is the point of view espoused by the Poe above. Out of the three, this is the one that I would say doesn't even qualify as a morality at all, mostly because of objection (f). If your imaginary friend tells you to eat your family and fuck babies, you eat that family and fuck those babies and call it moral. That is not a morality: that is schizophrenia.

In conclusion, atheists are paragons of virtue and Christians are immoral family-eating baby-fuckers. QED. (For the record: that's a joke. Or at least a gross exaggeration.)

January 8, 2010 12:20 PM  
Blogger Malimar said...

Incidentally, an objection that somebody (I can't remember who) brought up when I first mentioned the reciprocal-altruism thing was basically "I think we can do better than a morality that can appeal to psychopaths." I didn't have a good answer at the time other than "Your objection seems flawed", but two have come to me as I've thought about it more:

1.) They object on the basis that this morality is rational, powerful, and universal enough to give psychopaths a reason to behave morally? Really? I'd think if it's good enough to convince an amoral person to be moral, it should be good enough for anybody.

2.) Making the (probably dubious) assumption of a rational psychopath, any morality that is rooted in reason will appeal to this psychopath. To throw out any morality that appeals to psychopaths is to throw out any morality that is rooted in reason. No process that includes "throw out reason" as one of its steps can be a good process. (If you don't assume a rational psychopath, the whole question is moot because my reasoning probably won't appeal to an irrational psychopath in the first place.)

January 8, 2010 12:29 PM  
Blogger Petter Häggholm said...

Flimsy—on a minor aside,

The word "evolution" does have many possible variations of meaning, but only in a vernacular context. What we're discussing here is obviously the Theory of Biological Evolution. Cosmic evolution, Chemical evolution, etc., as you call them, are not scientific theories, and they're not being taught as scientific theories, and no one here is advocating that they are. The theory of Evolution ONLY has to do with biology.

Cosmic evolution looks like a somewhat fluffy term, but I’ve seen it used in ways synonymous to cosmology—an eminently respectable scientific field. There are some other very valid scientific uses of the word, e.g. stellar evolution to describe the life cycles of stars. Chemical evolution is often used to refer to possible pathways of abiogenesis from inorganic chemicals through primordial replicators through an RNA world to DNA and cellular life, and is speculative but certainly scientific enough (as long as the biochemists keep their enthusiasm in check)—I guess here we’d be dealing with scientific hypotheses rather than theories.

Of course, it remains true that they are entirely separate theories (or hypotheses); that the TOE does not depend on other theories of evolution—the only common thread is that they are theories about the dictionary meaning of evolution, “change over time”, of some system or other. Biological evolution could happen even if the Earth had been magically created.

January 8, 2010 7:06 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

Basically "the many types of evolution" play is one of Kent Hovind's Gish Gallop techniques.

January 8, 2010 7:42 PM  
Blogger Malimar said...

The dictionary definition of "evolution" is basically "gradual change", and can be used to describe anything that changes gradually.

Nowadays, it's very often used as shorthand for "biological evolution by natural selection", and that's how it's being used on this blog.

Trying to bring up the former when the latter is the topic of discussion is disingenuous at best.

January 8, 2010 7:53 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

Right, because usually we use 'evolution' as shorthand for 'The Theory of Evolution'.

January 8, 2010 7:56 PM  
Blogger Flimsyman said...

@Petter;

Right, the moment I commented I realized that "evolution" is used legitimately in some other fields like cosmology and chemistry. I didn't really worry about it, since it's still obvious that we're talking about biological evolution, and it's pretty clearly irrational to mention other scientific fields that use similar terminology and then claim that they are all one single theory.

@Malimar;

Well, we agree on (3), so lemme take a look at the academic difference between (1) and (2).

Re: Objection (d), I think that this objection is much more fatal to theist morality (3) than objective humanist morality (2). I don't claim that there is any absolute, intrinsic, cosmic morality - I don't think that such a thing exists in any morality. Objective Humanism (2) does have to use the premise, "People's security and freedom are morally good" or something similar, while theist morality (3) has to start with, "God exists" in some form or another. Of course, people can disagree with Humanism's premise, which simply means that they clearly won't be following Humanist morality. Theism's premise makes a claim that does have to be demonstrated to be objectively true, and I think that we have good reasons to think that it's not.

I think that (c) applies to just about every form of morality that we can come up with at one level or another, and I think that this ties into my principle objection (likewise, mainly academic objection) to your morality (1).

You rightly observe that (1) would seem to indicate, "it's okay to do whatever I want as long as I can get away with it . . ." Your response to this is that such a thing would destabilize society. In a nutshell, that's only true if everyone, or at least a significant portion of society, adopts such an attitude.

At face value, with nothing more than, "Moral behavior is in my own best interests," then moral behavior seems likely to entail advocating stable, objective morality for everyone else in society, while yourself following a "my own interests" morality. It seems to me that to satisfactorily resolve this objection, we need an additional premise that morality must not be relativistic in this way, or must be objective, or universally applicable, or something to that effect. In which case . . . morality (1) basically becomes morality (2), thus my conclusion.

January 11, 2010 10:23 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Right, All I hear from you guys is blah, blah, blah. You try too hard. You write too much to try to prove a point you don't have (even you probably don't understand what your talking about), and none of your facts can be cited or even taken seriously. I laugh at you for for trying. The comments above are not worth reading (not that I didn't read them). All you try to prove is God doesn't exist. You don't want to be responsible for your actions, you don't want God to be first in your life because you're proud. God still sees all your sins, the wrong things you have done to rebel against Almighty God. Unless you repent from your rebellious sins against God, and put your trust in Him, and only Him, God will judge you on judgement day, and based on what you've done (lied, stolen, blasphemed), you will deserve justice in Hell. It should concern you. All I know is I have joy in Jesus Christ. Because once I was a wretched sinner, and now saved by God's grace. God's word is alive.

~Vlad~

January 15, 2010 10:22 PM  
Blogger BathTub said...

You run away and hide for 10 days, and that's it?

Lame.

You haven't once backed up a single assertion you have made. Not once.

I have provided links and sources.

Seriously Vlad. Lame.

January 15, 2010 10:31 PM  
Blogger Malimar said...

@Flimsy: I think I might see what you're getting at now. For morality (1) to work properly, everyone needs to agree to it, and it needs to apply the same way to everyone. Pretty sure I've included that in explications of my reasoning in the past, but left it as an unstated premise this time, possibly because it seems so obvious I forgot to include it (probably the most common cause of unstated premises). If it's the case that you could basically agree with [(1) + a substantial portion of society must agree to it or something largely congruent to it], then there's much less disagreement than I thought.

I also generally espouse the idea that if someone does behave in a manner not congruent with this morality (and thus harmful to everyone who does behave in a manner congruent with this morality), they are deliberately placing themselves outside that morality, and the normal protections of morality no longer fully apply to them. This allows people who do act morally to imprison and otherwise cause suffering to the person who has placed himself outside of morality, proportional to the degree to which he has deviated from morality.

(Also, I just noticed that I didn't label the objection to (1); that wasn't an intentional attempt to make it seem like there aren't worthwhile objections to my position, it was an accident (I didn't hit on the idea of labeling points that way until I was in the middle of writing (2), so I missed one when I went back to add labels to (1)).)

Although, by "it would destabilize society", I didn't mean that if lots of people acted that way it would destabilize society. As we'll see near the end of this paragraph, I actually meant something like the opposite of that. This may be better illustrated by an example: If I steal from a person, even if I'm not caught and he doesn't know who stole from him, he's going to be that much less trusting of people in the future. Including me, should I ever happen to encounter him again. Similarly, if I up and kill a dude, even if I get away with it, the community will be jarred and prompted to invest more in law enforcement, which is to say, there will be more invasions of my privacy and more restrictions on my right to defend myself. Indeed, it could be that for this particular reasoning to be correct, a huge enough majority of people must behave morally for one aberration to be statistically noticeable so as to elicit a noticeable reaction to a single instance from society. Which is to say: if a large number of people are already immoral, me adding to the immorality isn't going to make any difference. If few people are immoral, me adding to the immorality is going to make a comparatively large difference. Though it remains true that society just wouldn't work if more than a critical mass of people acted immorally, the closer a society actually comes to that critical mass the less it matters how one individual behaves - that is, how I behave.

January 16, 2010 7:39 AM  
Blogger Malimar said...

Also, possibly even closer to what you were getting at: morality (1) is not absolute, but it must be objective in the sense that it is determined solely by what is objectively best for every individual in a society (ideally, experimentally derived, though that's not generally feasible in practice due to ethical concerns).

This may well vary on the psychology of each society in question, but given the general similarities between human brains, probably every human society would come up with something roughly similar. Societies of extraterrestrial origin, with totally alien psychologies, could concievably come up with a moral system very different from our own, which would work perfectly fine for them. That sort of gets at what I mean by morality not being absolute. If an alien kills another alien, I don't really have any right to judge whether or not that is a moral action unless it somehow impinges on me personally or humanity generally.

(When interactions occur between two groups with wildly differing moralities (eg, humans and space aliens), some compromise amenable to both societies must be reached, which will hold in all interactions between humans and aliens, though the original human morality will still apply to human-on-human interaction and the original alien morality will still apply to alien-on-alien.)

January 16, 2010 7:06 PM  

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