Fractal Pensive Ziztur
Freedom of the Mind.
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Monday, November 30, 2009

Proof...

...That I occasionally hang out with people you want to hang out with:


(PZ Myers, me, D.J. Grothe)

(Rebecca Watson, me)

I also took this great pic of PZ, during a late night party in a hotel room:



I also have to share this picture of fellow blogger Saint Gasoline.




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Sunday, November 29, 2009

3H1P: Should churches deny services to gay people?

3H1P is a blogging project wherein three heathens (Ziztur, Flimsy and Petter) and one pastor (Keith) answer questions posed by readers of the blog and discuss various issues related to religion, philosophy, science, etc. If you have a question that you'd like to see answered by 3H1P, ask it in the comment box. We promise we'll probably get to it.


The following question is by long-time commenter EdW, as answered by Pastor Keith:

I have a good Mormon friend who supports gay marriage rights, but also believes that homosexuality is a sin that should not be tolerated within his church. He's a staunch supporter of civil unions, but believes that churches should have the right to be as discriminatory as they want. His argument is that we should work to change the law, but not people's beliefs or practices, especially not through legal means. I tend to think of this in terms of desegregation -- should shop owners have the right to refuse service to black people?

I'm reminded of the news story the other day about the pastor in (Florida? I think?) who refused to marry the interracial couple, and there was something of an outraged hullabaloo about it. (And yes, I just spelled hullabaloo correctly on the first try. I'm pretty awesome). Yet many, many supporters of gay marriage feel that churches should have every right to deny their services to gay couples.

So, with the lengthy preamble out of the way, my question is this -- to what degree should we lobby for laws that in effect infringe on an organization's discriminatory practices, religious or otherwise?

-EdW



EdW,

Thanks for the question. If acceptable, I will answer the question about lobbying … then I will answer the underlying question about how I as a Christian interact on the issue of gay marriage rights.

I have no personal objections to lobbying for law change. It is the right of a citizen to make their voice heard, and the responsibility of the lawmakers to make good law. However, I do not feel that progress in law has the same impact on the world that changing someone's mind and heart does. On "hot-button" issues like abortion and gay marriage, the best persuasion seems to come from thought-provoking arguments on either side, not on major legal initiatives. In fact the major legal initiatives often anger and embolden whatever side "lost" out in the change. That side then redoubles their efforts to produce another major initiative. This back-and-forth creates the kind of environment where one side gets a law passed, and the other side retaliates by trying to change an amendment. The lasting change will come through well-thought-out arguments diligently repeated persuasively over a long period of time. In short, my opinion is that there's nothing wrong with lobbying, but it's better to attempt to persuade the individuals and organizations involved. Until that happens, the back-and-forth will continue.

If changing hearts and minds is where the real change happens, then people who are not Christians need to become increasingly fluent in Bible. If you can talk to Christians intelligently about their Scriptures, it will go a long way toward persuading them. Let me give a few examples on this issue that would be helpful in a conversation where you're trying to persuade a Christian to be more considerate to homosexuals.

If someone mentions that homosexuality is an "abomination," the conversation may already be too far gone . However, it's helpful to actually have a definition for the word abomination and to be able to discuss the book of Leviticus (18:23, 20:13). One of the following will be more persuasive than the other:

Option 1: "Yes, the Bible says that it is an abomination for two men to sleep together. However, that's said in the book of Leviticus. It also says that it's an abomination to eat shellfish. You can't pick and choose your rules which you will follow and which ones you will not. Do you eat shrimp? Then you are a hypocrite to discriminate against homosexuals."

Option 2: "Yes, the Bible says that it is an abomination for two men to sleep together. However, that's said in the book of Leviticus. That book is part of the Old Testament … the Old Covenant. Those rules don't apply to Christians today, because Jesus changed the way we relate to God. Our relationship with God is based on grace. This is why it's okay for a Christian to eat shellfish today, even though that's also called an abomination. Make sense?

Though similar, many Christians will feel attacked as a hypocrite by option #1, while they will actually be surprised by the depth of insight in option #2 and it can lead to further conversation. Discussing how to apply the Old Testament will be a much more productive conversation if you are trying to change the heart and mind of a Christian.

Another key passage to be able to discuss with a Christian is Romans 1, where Paul goes on a bit of a rant against all the evil in the world. This chapter contains statements like "men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." If trying to persuade a Christian, this is a common point to start attacking the Bible itself as hate-filled, etc. There is a much more effective approach.

Paul in the book of Romans is writing a letter to a church in Rome that is quite large; filled with both Jews and Gentiles. The two groups had some trouble getting along, and the book of Romans is primarily about helping these two groups of people coexist and move forward together. His first chapter plays a key role in that purpose, but is not what one would think. In chapter one, Paul leads out in a somewhat-typical self-righteous diatribe befitting a Jewish Christian of his day. He does this to set up the self-righteous folks at the church at Rome for what they need to hear in what we call chapter 2. After detailing a number of sins that people do that bring negative consequences into their life, Paul shifts gears saying in Romans 2:1: "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things." He then begins to talk about all the different ways that even Jewish Christians of his day break the law. This rhetorical flourish reaches its climax in Romans 3:22b-24 where Paul says, "There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." He has reached his initial point that whether a person in the church at Rome is a Jewish Christian (who would still desire to follow the Old Covenant) or a Gentile Christian (who knew very little about the Old Covenant), they have the same basis for a relationship with God … the free grace offered through Jesus Christ. If you lay out the book of Romans in this way, you will be able to point out that the few verses that are derogatory toward homosexuality are themselves a set-up to point out the hypocrisy of those who disparage one type of moral failure while ignoring their own. One can then call a Christian friend to remember that their relationship with God is not based on how effectively they've stayed away from sin or moral failure, but rather on the grace He's given through Jesus. The possibility of a Christian having their heart and mind changed through this type of conversation is much higher.

To wrap up, I think changing hearts and minds is more productive than changing laws. The best ways to change the hearts and minds of a Christian is to get to know how they think, and try to show how the good principles they hold can be applied to this issue to reach a humble, gracious, and moral conclusion. Hope that helps, and good luck conversing with your friend.

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Friday, November 27, 2009

3H1P: Should churches deny services to gay people?

3H1P is a blogging project wherein three heathens (Ziztur, Flimsy and Petter) and one pastor (Keith) answer questions posed by readers of the blog and discuss various issues related to religion, philosophy, science, etc. If you have a question that you'd like to see answered by 3H1P, ask it in the comment box. We promise we'll probably get to it.

The following question is by long-time commenter EdW, as answered by Zizur:

I have a good Mormon friend who supports gay marriage rights, but also believes that homosexuality is a sin that should not be tolerated within his church. He's a staunch supporter of civil unions, but believes that churches should have the right to be as discriminatory as they want. His argument is that we should work to change the law, but not people's beliefs or practices, especially not through legal means. I tend to think of this in terms of desegregation -- should shop owners have the right to refuse service to black people?

I'm reminded of the news story the other day about the pastor in (Florida? I think?) who refused to marry the interracial couple, and there was something of an outraged hullabaloo about it. (And yes, I just spelled hullabaloo correctly on the first try. I'm pretty awesome). Yet many, many supporters of gay marriage feel that churches should have every right to deny their services to gay couples.

So, with the lengthy preamble out of the way, my question is this -- to what degree should we lobby for laws that in effect infringe on an organization's discriminatory practices, religious or otherwise?

-EdW

Gay marriage is certainly a complicate issue. I think that there are two issues regarding gay marriage: what is ultimately most ethical, and what is ultimately most probable or practical. I believe that ultimately, that the government defining marriage to only include "one man and one woman" is a violation of the first amendment. Ideally, the government should untangle its figurative hands from the definition of marriage and let people define it as it suits their particular beliefs. I don't really agree with the "incentives" the government offers for married people, because by offering those incentives, it not only restricts the definition of marriage but it promotes that particular definition. Perhaps this makes me ever so slightly libertarian, but I don't think that one particular view of marriage should be given priority over another view and I do not think that a particular restrictive definition of marriage should be enforced by the government.

Instead, I think the government should recognize civil unions – unions between consenting adults. If said adults want to get married in a church or handfasted naked in the woods, or sign some papers in a courthouse, they are free to do so. However, we're a long way from having the government be entirely disconnected from marriage, so the first step is to have the government stop restricting marriage to a specific definition that is only accepted by some individuals, and we can start that by having the government not restrict marriage to only between one man and one woman.

So, if the government were to stop discriminating against homosexuals, should churches and religious organizations retain the right to discriminate against homosexuals? This is a tough call. On the one hand, I actually want to say, "yes". A religious organization should be able to limit the "marriages" they perform based on their religion – a Catholic priest should not be forced to let a Muslim couple marry in their church and have a Muslim ceremony, an atheist minister should not have to perform a religious ceremony, and a church should not have to perform the marriage ceremony of a gay couple, either. Really though, do churches honestly believe this will be a huge problem, as though gay couples are going to come barging into their church, demanding that they allow them to marry there? I doubt it. Most people want to be married by people they trust, in a place where they feel welcome, embraced and accepted for who they are. If a church does not fit their needs, they will go somewhere else. It seems pretty silly of me to go to a Catholic Church and demand that the priests marry me and my blaspheming boyfriend while refusing to allow them to invoke their god. Similarly, some religious leaders will refuse marriage ceremonies to people who have been divorced.

But how is this different from a church refusing to marry an interracial couple or a couple where one (or both) of the members has a disability?

The news story the other day was actually about a justice of the peace who refused to marry an interracial couple. This is most assuredly wrong. But if the government stops banning gay marriage, will justices of the peace be able to refuse to marry homosexual couples on the grounds that they have a religious objection to it? I think the answer is, "no", but at the same time, I would not want my civil union tainted by a scowling Justice.

Your real question is, "to what degree should we lobby for laws that in effect infringe on an organization's discriminatory practices, religious or otherwise?

I don't think that the ability to be discriminatory is a right. I am appalled by how many people in the world think it is some kind of right, and that taking away someone's ability to discriminate is discriminatory. So you feel very strongly that marriage should be defined as X. Fine. I feel marriage should be defined as Y. Y does not forbid people from marrying because the couple in question possesses the same kinds of genitals. X does. It would be better for everyone if the government did not declare that the definition of marriage was X or Y, but it will take quite a lot more effort to get to that point. Think of it this way: take any argument against civil rights for gays and replace "gay" with "black" or "disabled" or "interracial" and see if your argument still sounds good, or dissolves into a steaming pile of discriminatory bullshit. You can't infringe on an organization's right to be discriminatory, because being discriminatory isn't a right. Our effort and opposition should be proportional to the amount of discrimination and oppression. Given a choice, I will lobby against whichever is the greater evil.

Also, I just want to state for the record that right now, in 2009, most of the opposition to civil rights for gays are from people who are religious – in America, the opposition to gay marriage is mostly by people who are Christian. One day, hundreds of years from now, when homosexuals have the same civil rights as heterosexuals, Christians are going to take credit for it, in the same way that they take credit for abolishing slavery. In order for civil rights for gays to be fully accepted and real, Christians must get behind it. Perhaps Christians will look back and wonder how people could twist the teachings of the Bible in such a way as to use the Bible to justify discrimination, in the same way that we look with distain upon those who used the Bible to justify the enslavement of African-Americans.

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Wednesday, November 25, 2009

3H1P: ‘sup w/ evolution and Jesus?

 3H1P is a blogging project wherein three heathens (Ziztur, Flimsy and Petter) and one pastor (Keith) answer questions posed by readers of the blog and discuss various issues related to religion, philosophy, science, etc. If you have a question that you'd like to see answered by 3H1P, ask it in the comment box. We promise we'll probably get to it.

I know this question was meant for Pastor Keith, but I decided to go ahead and answer it, too.

Reader Mitch asks:

I've read that most Christians are ok with evolution. But the truth of evolution shows that the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden is a myth, hence there was no "Fall", no "Original Sin". Without "Original Sin" there is no need for "Salvation". Jesus is pointless. So, how can a Christian accept evolution?

I would like to question the initial premise of this question that most Christians are okay with evolution. I'm glad that you prefaced this factoid with "I've read" rather than simply proclaiming it as a fact – it shows that you're likely to know the difference between what people claim and what is actually true.

According to every reputable public opinion polling establishment out there, most American Christians are not okay with evolution. According to the Pew forum, only 6% of evangelical Christians, 31% of mainline Christians, and 25% of Catholics in he US believe that "humans and other living things evolved over time through natural selection" (in 2006). According to the Gallup poll, 24% of people who attend church weekly or more accept evolution – though it does not say that they accept evolution in its entirety. People who are both Christian and accept evolution fall squarely in the minority, and I can imagine that an even tinier portion of Christians both fully accept evolution and fully believe in a literal interpretation of the Garden.Of course, as fellow blogger Marc_Newcomb points out, this says nothing about Christians outside the US. Do most Christians believe in evolution? I'm not entirely sure.

Regardless, the meat of your question is still important. How can a Christian accept evolution? I'm not a Christian, but in my experience most Christians who accept evolution accept a blend of both Christianity and evolution in such a way that the level of cognitive dissonance is not so much that they are winning the Dissonance Olympics with their impressive brain gymnastics.

I would imagine that one can accept in evolution on a continuum from total confidence in evolution to total rejection, with many varieties of partial acceptance in between. We can even plot this on a totally unscientific but still useful graph:

There are a lot of people out there who consider evolution to be true, but that it was guided by the hand of their god. These people are more likely to believe that the Garden story is mythical, but can still believe that we are all sinners by nature and need salvation. They could believe "Adam and Eve" are allegories for the human race, or any number of different things. So I don't think that evolution and Christianity are necessarily in conflict with each other, depending on what parts of which you accept. Obviously, a literalist interpretation of the Bible is in conflict. If you believe that the world was created in 6 literal days, then to accept evolution in addition to the literal creation story is to accept that Billy is both sixty years old and two days old.

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Tuesday, November 24, 2009

3H1P: Christianity vs. Evolution

3H1P is a blogging project wherein three heathens (Ziztur, Flimsy and Petter) and one pastor (Keith) answer questions posed by readers of the blog and discuss various issues related to religion, philosophy, science, etc. If you have a question that you'd like to see answered by 3H1P, ask it in the comment box. We promise we'll probably get to it. The following is Pastor Keith's response to this question:

Hi, this is for Pastor Keith. I've read that most Christians are ok with evolution. But the truth of evolution shows that the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden is a myth, hence there was no "Fall", no "Original Sin". Without "Original Sin" there is no need for "Salvation". Jesus is pointless. So, how can a Christian accept evolution? -Mitch

Thanks for the question and for the opportunity to address it. In order to attempt an answer to your overall question – "How can a Christian accept evolution?" – I must first make an adjustment to one of the fundamental assumptions in your request.

The assumption that without "Original Sin" there is no need for "Salvation" is a misunderstanding of the breadth of theology under the heading of "Christian." Numerous theologies are dependent on the concept of original sin, but numerous theologies also disregard the concept of original sin. The issue itself is not universally agreed on in the church at large. So, whether the Genesis account supports the doctrine of original sin or not, the doctrine itself is not essential to Christianity. This is evidenced by the fact that many churches and denominations talk about "salvation" without believing the doctrine of original sin. I can go into more detail on this issue, but I believe it would detract from your larger question … which I will get on to now .

Given that the only way to stop evolution is extinction, I'm a huge fan of evolution. I'm both grateful for it and willing participant in it. I am not only "ok" with evolution, but a fan of it. Said another way, accepting evolution has had the same amount of negative impact on my faith as accepting gravity has.

I believe in creation and in God as the first cause, but I do not believe in creationism. The fossil record, plate tectonics, comparative anatomy, etc. all point to evolution. Everything we can understand from the world around at this point suggests that the world is not 6000 years old. I am humble enough to know that I am not the most scientifically knowledgeable man on the planet … and I will trust those who are more knowledgeable to be competent and sincere.

I do know a little about Scripture. I know that the book of Genesis was written to detail the Israelite tribes' common history … it is not a science textbook. I know that the Hebrew word "yom" is translated as "day" in most Bibles even though it can be translated as "period of time" (and is in fact translated as such in other parts of the Old Testament). In fact, the more detailed creation account in Genesis two shows Adam classifying the species in between the time where he was created and where Eve was created. This surely took at least a lifetime to accomplish, and yet that same time period was considered a "day" in Genesis 1. I am humble enough to think that translators do not get every variable of an ancient Hebrew text 100% correct.

Humility also points to the fact that science changes over time. This is one of science's great strengths … it is continually self-correcting and growing. However, I hold my current understanding of evolution loosely enough to allow continued learning. In the same way, one of theology's greatest strengths is its willingness to self-correct over time. Information flows more freely today than ever before, and one does not have to get their spiritual information from a lone interpreter today.

Evolution does not change my opinion of God as the source of life. I think the complexity and beauty of evolution only enhances my esteem for God. Please allow me to draw a couple of spiritual lessons that I see echoed in evolution that show how my belief in evolution enhances my faith.

First let me steal an example from my friend Siamang. If one man fights one bear, the man has roughly 0% chance of survival. If fifty men fight one bear, the bear has roughly 0% of survival. That human beings continue to survive and thrive is not because we are the strongest, but largely because we form among the tightest bonds of any creature. We have survived by banding together. Note my previous post about how I believe the underlying purpose of this universe is to objectively affirm love: I see the survival of humanity as a testimony to the power of love. It is because of our bonds that we survive. Thus, I find evolution and my faith in total alignment.

Secondly, I think that science as an exploration of the world is an act of worship for me. Through science we have discovered a universe more elegant, grand, and complex that ever imagined. If there is a God – and I believe there is – how could such exploration be anything but honoring to that God? I am spiritually alive when I am contemplating Annie Dillard's spiritual lessons from nature, or reading an article on quantum theory. I am spiritually alive when I listen to my sons reason together as to why an earthworm does not have eyes.

My boys were discussing earthworms last night. They tossed around several theories as to why earthworms do not have eyes. They thought the earthworm they were examining had had his eyes poked out, but then they noticed that none of the earthworms had eyes. They explored other options, nearly all of them containing a grain of truth, with none of them quite centering it. My efforts at understanding how life as I know it today came about are similar. I mull lots of theories, nearly all containing some value … and yet I still do not have it perfectly centered. So I am humble. I believe in God and I follow Jesus. I affirm evolution and I trust scientists. And I am humble enough not only to see no reason why a person cannot do all of those, but also find them working together to call me to a lifetime of testimony to the power of love.

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Monday, November 23, 2009

Skepticon and loyalty

Sorry that my posts died out for a few days – the truth is that I have been busy both working my a$$ off at my internship (in five weeks I will finish, and then I will be Doctor Ziztur). In addition to working my a$$ off, Flimsy and I have been scouring the St. Louis area for a house to buy, which will hopefully be large enough that we can use it as some kind of bizarre commune.

This weekend Saint Gasoline, The Alien, Flimsy and I went to Skepticon II, a skeptic/atheist conference held in Springfield, Mo. We had an absolute blast hanging out with Richard Carrier, PZ Myers, Rebecca Watson, D.J. Grothe, Dan Barker, and a bunch of other skeptics (including all the other St. Louis bloggers).

The four of us ended up partying late into the night with PZ, D.J., Richard, Rebecca, and a bunch of other awesome folks. In a semi-intoxicated (by skepticism, the late hours and some rum) state, I managed to snap some portraits in the dimly-lit motel room. As far as portraits go, they aren't amazing – but I think they are pretty good given the poor lighting.

I think my friend The Alien did the coolest thing of all – she used to think atheists were evil jackasses who did nothing more than undermine and condemn everyone around them. She was kind of afraid of atheists because once upon a time, someone who could best be described as an "atheist communist conspiracy theorist" was the only atheist she knew, and he treated her as though she were somehow less than human… for years. So what does she do? She goes to a conference where everyone is an atheist and ends up in a hotel room with famous authors and public figures of the movement – and she loved it! I don't know many people who are willing to open themselves up like that. People should be more like her.

About 2 years ago, Alien and I lived together, and we lived with someone who can best be described as a "communist conspiracy theorist atheist who was hell bent on destroying any and all belief, even to the detriment of other people." The Alien was mentally tortured by this individual, who would frequently direct words like, "stupid", "wrong", and "inhuman" at her. She and the communist conspiracy theorist atheist (CCTA) both paid rent to the owner of the house. The torment got so bad that CCTA and his girlfriend violated her personal property, going into her room to steal and throw away object if spiritual importance to her. CCTA may have been an atheist but he certainly was no skeptic. He was more of a contrarian or a denialist – 9/11 was an inside job, there was no lone gunman, the Masons are out to get us, the Jews are out to get us, the election was rigged, aluminum will kill you, vaccines cause autism, Big Pharma wants to keep you sick, GE crops are evil, etc.

Despite all of the seething hatred directed at her The Alien tried desperately to understand CCTA: "I made many, many attempts to understand his points of view. He made no attempt, and instead riled against any thoughts I had of my own." After finally finding the means to move out, she "wanted nothing to do with atheists." CCTA was the only atheist she knew, and he had tainted her perspective on atheists and atheism: "If he was what atheism was, I wanted no part of that. In fact, anyone who would dare question my beliefs who claimed to be an atheist, would have gotten screamed out of my subdivision. "

When I came out as an atheist, The Alien was heartbroken: "I was more than appalled. I felt betrayed by the person who knew me the most. She, becoming atheist, was like her telling me she was going to become exactly like [CCTA]. It put the largest wedge in our friendship than has ever been there before. I wasn't sure I could stand to be around her, as if she had been contaminated with this disease that turned people into...well, [CCTA].

She and I had a tough relationship for the next year or so. I tried to explain that not all atheists were like CCTA, but he had so contaminated her view of atheism that it was hard for her to believe. Her reaction was very much like people who have been told by the church that atheists are evil and immoral – when you meet a moral one, you believe that the immorality is hiding just underneath a thin veneer. But then things changed when The Alien invited me along to help her with a house painting job:

"I needed someone to work with me on a house and [Ziztur] was available to help. Somewhere during the first few days, she said she had something interesting to have me listen to. Okay, no problem - this happens quite frequently. I like interesting stuff and she knows what I would find interesting. Somewhere in those next few days… she had me listen to this podcast. It was Point of Inquiry. I had no idea what Point of Inquiry was, but the podcast was definitely interesting."

We ended up listening to POI for 6 hours a day, 5 days a week for several weeks. Later on, I introduced her to Skeptic's Guide to the Universe. At some point, I let the Alien know that POI and the other podcasts were all produced by atheists. She decided that though she had no desire to meet any of the people in the podcasts, they were cool and interesting.

Slowly, I began to introduce her to other people in my circle of godless friends. First, it was some people I was dating:

"I've never been so scared to enter a house, ever… I was adamant on not getting too deep in conversation with them lest they start questioning my beliefs and attacking them upon finding out I wasn't an atheist like them. While I ended up conversing with them, it did not go too deeply… At least they didn't mentally torture me with their conversation. Okay, some atheists are okay."

Skip ahead to a few months ago. The Alien uses me as her personal lending library, and at one point I convinced her to read a skeptical book. We started with Why People Believe Weird Things by Michael Shermer, and she eventually moved on to read books by Richard Dawkins, Mary Roach, Darrel Ray, and others. She worked up the nerve to attend atheist book clubs with me. She took my mp3 player (loaded with POI, SGU, and Quackcast) to Europe to feed her ears during long train rides.

"By this time, I'm starting to figure out that the intellectual conversation may just overpower my now deep fear of atheists. I took some tentative steps, checking out - gasp- other blogs than [Ziztur's] and the POI website."

Surprisingly, The Alien was off work last weekend. She had heard about Skepticon II from Skepchick.org, and dropped me a line, asking if she could come along. A few hours later, she was sitting in the car with me, Flimsy, and Saint Gasoline. She describes how she felt on the way to the con:

"Imagine a deep nervousness that keeps on being pushed down by the want for intellectual conversations sure to happen. Imagine being nervous at meeting people you've been listening to not long, but just long enough to feel like you're meeting someone famous. Imagine still being deeply nervous and still quite a bit fearful of the people who were SURE to ask you about your religious beliefs and question you when you still haven't worked out your stand on everything-in-the-known-world-much-less-yourself (see future posts on this) completely yet. You've probably gotten the picture."

"Imagine then fitting in better at this convention than fitting in ANYWHERE else ever in your life, even with groups of friends known for years. "

The Alien has a message:

"I must say it clearly to CCTA and the other demeaning atheists out there who use mental torture to wear down others. You, sir, do/did NOT help your cause in the slightest. Your strategy did NOT work and scared away someone who COULD have been someone on your side. Now before you think "wait, but it did", technically.... you're still wrong. It would have probably always come to [skepticism] (just by nature of my friend deciding for herself), and what you did was stop someone from becoming [a skeptic] for years longer than they probably would have. You did a disservice to your cause and I do not believe anyone should respect what you say given the way you go about proving your points…YOU are a DISGRACE TO ATHEISTS and ATHEISM and THEY DO NOT NEED YOU as an advocate."

The Alien is also one of those few skeptics out there who is not exactly an atheist – but she is a skeptic, a freethinker, a best friend, and she is beyond loyal, even going so far as to get in the car and go somewhere where she is in enemy territory – and instead of finding hostility, she found friends.

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Friday, November 20, 2009

3H1P: P.Keith on death

3H1P is a blogging project wherein three heathens (Ziztur, Flimsy and Petter) and one pastor (Keith) answer questions posed by readers of the blog and discuss various issues related to religion, philosophy, science, etc. If you have a question that you'd like to see answered by 3H1P, ask it in the comment box. We promise we'll probably get to it. The following is Pastor Keith's response to this question:

What are your feelings toward death (in other words, what happens when you die)?

I'm not a huge fan of death. I could do without it. But, like Anton Chigurh, it just keeps coming regardless of whether or not I approve. So I vacillate between fearing and running from death like Llewelyn Moss, or accepting its insatiability and living my short life to the full like Sheriff Bell. To state the obvious, my feelings toward death are not positive.

"What happens when we die?" is a unique question. Most questions have right and wrong answers. We can research, and change our answer if what we learn suggests a change is needed. However, with the question of what happens when we die, we discover the truth at a point where it is impossible for us to make any changes based on this information. This isn't a setup to Pascal's wager. This is simply an admission that the answer to this question only comes at the point where it's impossible to go back and trade our answer for the correct one. Though this fact sucks, to accept it is far wiser than to war against it.

The good news for this blogger is that I can say anything I want and you can't prove me wrong. I can recommend that at death we come face-to-face with the Flying Spaghetti Monster and loyal Pastafarians are ushered into an eternal paradise, where those who failed to worship him are crushed until they resemble that "marinara sauce" fast food chains give out with their mozzarella sticks- and you couldn't prove me wrong. So, I'm offering the idea that at death everyone who hasn't given me enormous sums of money is going to be tortured for eternity … yeah, that sounds about right. Now, of course, you don't have to give me an enormous sum of money, but you don't want to face an eternity of being crushed into marinara and find that you should have, now do you? Do you?!?

For me the question of what happens when we die is tied to other deep and difficult-to-answer questions like "Why are we here?" So allow me the opportunity to step back and try to give a long answer to a straight-forward question.

I am forever dumbfounded that something rather than nothing exists. While I do not understand everything about how this universe exists, I am currently persuaded – through my current scientific understanding, my present confidence in the Kalam cosmological argument, and other reasons – that this universe began to exist. The theory I currently prescribe to proposes that a causeless, necessary agent caused this universe to exist.

This persuasion that a necessary being caused this temporal universe suggests that this necessary being must be personal. If a personal being caused this temporal universe, then the reason for which that being caused the universe would also be temporal.

That temporal reason or purpose would seemingly be something the causeless agent could not achieve without that temporal creation. To me, it would otherwise be pointless to cause such a temporal universe. This train of thought leads me to consider what kind of things a causeless agent would be unable to achieve.

Admittedly, the long leaps in logic get even longer for me here … but today I still find these leaps to be shorter than others available to me. If tomorrow, I should find a more logical approach, I will be persuaded by it. One thing a causeless agent would still be unable to achieve is objectivity. Therefore, it is logical to consider if this universe exists to provide objectivity. If the universe would provide objectivity in a way a causeless, necessary being could not, it is sensible for us to consider why such a being would cause something objective to exist. In my life, the times I see objectivity most desired are in the areas of education (where something is objectively proven) or in the area of justice (where someone is convicted or set free based on the decision of an objective judge or jury). If this is the case, then this universe is an objective testing ground, perhaps a jury of sorts.

If this caused universe is intended to serve as an objective testing ground, I propose that this universe exists to test the competing theories of love and hate. The twin forces identified by these words are the most powerful I have experienced in my lifetime. The tension between these two forces is carried in memes and narratives of love versus hate stretching across cultures and throughout time.

I have been asked before, "Is God good because He achieves a standard of goodness that is outside Himself ... or is God good because He is powerful and whatever He considered good would be considered good and we would be unable to access any standard of goodness outside of that?" This is a good question ... one that hides a charge. This question alleges that it is possible that God is only good because He is powerful, rather than because He actually is good. Such a question could only be answered by an objective test ... or the assembling of an objective jury. Such a test should show whether love or hate is good, and whether goodness is just a matter of power. If I am correct that a causeless being caused this universe in order to test said being's confidence that love is better than hate, then I propose that such a being is characterized by what I call love (which builds up and openly welcomes exploration) rather than by what I call hate (which destroys and tolerates no questioning).

My faith tradition upholds the view that God welcomes challenge and appeals to this universe as an objective testing grounds. A reading of the first chapters of Job reveals Satan accusing God of showing favoritism ... that Job's life of love exists only because God has unreasonably filled his life with good things. God takes this accusation seriously and allows measures to be taken to assure that objectivity is maintained. God allows Satan to test if Job lives a life of love and faithfulness objectively, and not because he has been dealt a better hand. The rest of the book of Job details Job's experience in continuing to find love and wisdom while his quality of life is systematically destroyed by Satan. The story of Job ends with the last chapter detailing how at the end of this experience, God lavishes good things on Job. Because Job has been loving when his life was in shambles, God is able to lovingly bless him without violating the objectivity of life's experiment.

My faith tradition also sees the value of prayer through the lens of a universe-as-testing-grounds model. That a causeless being would favor some part of this universe over another would be favoritism … and would invalidate the purpose of this universe. But a personal causeless being would not disqualify the universe's objectivity to grant selfless requests offered by one temporal being on behalf of others. In fact, the act of prayer on behalf of another is itself an act of love. Like Job, faithfulness to show love regardless of circumstances provides our objective testimony and allows that loving necessary being I call God to personally express love out without interfering with the primary purpose for this universe.

This all brings us back to what I think (if by now I can be accused of thinking … surely the stacking of unproven premises on top of one another hardly qualifies as thinking ;-)) happens after one dies. I do not know what happens after one dies. I know that the body ceases to function. I know that any recognizable existence in this world ends at that point.

I grasp that death like Anton Chigurh will keep coming until it has me. I grasp that hatred will keep charging until it has destroyed the whole universe. But by faithfulness to an ideal, I grasp what I consider a secret to this universe … that love cannot be destroyed by hate.

So my confidence is that love is a way of life that is not destroyed at death. Rather, one who holds faithfully to love even as he or she faces death casts their vote as one small part of this objective jury.

I see this in my faith tradition, where Jesus himself describes what happens after death as a sorting of sheep and goats in Matthew chapter twenty-five. While theologians often take this and other similar passages as inferring reward and punishment, I see in them a counting of a sort of vote. Those who lived in love (for fun read Matthew 25 as Jesus describes the actions of those he sorts … this is plainly a sorting of love and hate … not a sorting of religious affiliation) go to the right and those who lived in selfish hatred go to the left. As I best understand it, those who lived in love will join in whatever eternal existence looks like as jurors testifying objectively to the supremacy of love. Those who lived in hatred will join in whatever eternal existence looks like as jurors testifying to the total destruction of hatred. Regardless of how many choose love and how many choose hatred, … our final states will themselves give testimony that love itself is good, while hatred finds its end.

So, at death, I believe we enter into an eternal state testifying to the value of love or the impotency of hatred. We provide an objective testimony that the causeless being that caused this universe could never have provided, thus fulfilling the temporary purpose of this universe. Of course, if I am wrong I will not be able to do anything about it once I found out. Until that day, I will do my best to offer my life as a testimony to love, whether such testimony survives my body's death or meets its end along with me.

And so Chigurh will keep coming and I can't stop him. Like Sheriff Bell I am resigned. I dream of lost money. I dream that my father is up ahead am and he's building a fire. And I wake up.

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Thursday, November 19, 2009

3H1P: Who is Keith, why is he Xian?

 This is a new series of blog posts in which three heathens and one pastor (Hence 3H1P) answer questions posed by bloggers and offer point-counterpoint analysis of interesting topics. The three heathens are Flimsy, Ziztur and Petter while the one pastor is Pastor Keith. If you have a question you'd like to see answered by 3H1P, ask away in the comments box. Here's his intro!

Much thanks to Ziztur, Flimsy, & Petter on the opportunity to be a guest on their blog. My name is Keith and I am a pastor. Ziz & Flimsy have befriended me and asked me to participate in a series of posts where we answer questions together: me from a Christian perspective and they from an atheist perspective. A couple of clarifications before I begin … first, I will write as a representative of myself, and not of Christendom as a whole. I am not capable of representing all of Christendom and even if I were, Christendom would certainly not elect me as such a representative. Additionally, I would have to use eleventh century words like "Christendom" a lot and that would suck. Second, I will participate in these posts with an open mind … knowing that my opinions are just that. If I am persuaded to change various thoughts and beliefs through this process, I will be all the better. I request that you approach them with a similarly open mind. Thank you for engaging with this series … and without further ado, let's get to our first question.

1. How did you become a Christian?

I was raised near a small Illinois town of seventy-five people, and my family and I lived about five miles outside of town on a farm. When I rode the bus to my school, I rode for an hour in the morning, and another hour in the evening. So, the best thing public education did for me was to give me two hours each day for reading. And I read everything. I read novels, Native American stories, and Encyclopedia Brown. I read everything Roald Dahl ever wrote, jokebooks, and even my cousin's Babysitter's Club series. And I read the Bible … a lot. When I read the Bible, I was continually drawn to the gospels. From a very early age, I spent time alone pondering the challenge that Jesus' life and death represented.

I believe it was in third grade that I started trying to follow Him. There was a kid in my class who had the whole package of grade school isolation. He was unintelligent, obese, and impoverished. He must have bathed on only the rarest of occasions, and he lived in a ramshackle excuse for a house in one of our counties poorer areas nicknamed "Brooklyn." Third grade work was pretty easy for me, so I decided that I was in third grade to help this kid. We started spending large amounts of time together. The teacher eventually recognized this and allowed me to officially be his tutor. His grades improved significantly, and I used what little social capital I had to ensure that he was included in recess games, group projects, etc. Not only did this relationship make his and my life better, but it seemed to alter the atmosphere of our class and of the school in a small but significant way. From this experience, I determined that following Jesus seemed to change the world for the better. While I was officially baptized sometime after that … it was at that point that I decided I wanted to spend my life emulating Jesus. To this point, following Him has been the absolute joy of my life.

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Wednesday, November 18, 2009

Ask an Atheist; Two questions for Flimsyman

Long-time readers might remember the imminently frustrating Dr. Brad Harrub (warning, that link to our reviews of his seminar is pretty epic - we got, like, 30 blog posts out of that insanity), a professional Creationist seminar speaker.

He had an interesting request - two questions that he'd like us to answer.  Two questions - either of which I could rant about almost indefinitely.  I'll try to be brief:

1. Can you summarize why you became an atheist?

Short answer:  I found the Bible to be ethically and morally horrifying.  Some details:  Started actually reading the Bible when I was 11, read it cover to cover, and read it more as a teenager.  To put it simply, it offended every single notion of justice, morality, and compassion that I had.  Having sat in church services my whole childhood, my expectation of Jesus was that he would be the most intelligent, wise, ethical teacher that mankind had ever known.  I read the Bible, and Jesus actually sounded insane.  So having not actually given up my belief, I went through spells of depression as a teenager, believing that there was a God, who would reward his followers for obedience and punish those who disobeyed, . . . yet who was obviously psychotic, and that "punishing those who disobeyed" would, in effect, be the eternal, unending torture of the vast overwhelming majority of people who have ever lived.

You know that old atheist line - the same way that you confidently reject all other religions, that's how and why I reject yours?  Having heard my whole life that all other religions are completely wrong, it wasn't at all difficult to see how Islam, Buddhism, Wicca, etc. are factually incorrect.  It was years later that I decided that the Biblical God was highly, highly unlikely to exist, and even more so when I educated myself a bit about the scientific method.

Now, to summarize the absolute, basic foundation of why I am an atheist - the idea of God contradicts known facts about the universe.  There are MANY examples of this I could give.  Here's a few:  God violates the second law of thermodynamics (extremely ironic, given that Creationists claim that evolution violates this law of nature, when it does not).  We observe, 100% of the time, that a "mind," possessing intelligence and emotion, only exists as (and as a result of) an organism with a physical body and brain.  The concept of God actually violates *all* known facts about how reality works, because God can supposedly do anything.  I don't believe that Santa Claus exists because it's physically impossible for one, single man to visit every human dwelling on this planet (or even just the houses in America) in an evening, to even ignore the question of what aerodynamic properties are possessed by which species of reindeer.  God is claimed to violate the laws of reality in many more ways than Santa Claus.

A god who grants us an afterlife is sure to be a highly desirable belief to many people, and this is exactly why we should be skeptical of it; the more likely we would *want* a false claim to be true, the more easily we will be convinced of it, and so we should be that much more certain that it is true.

All of the evidence and arguments for the existence of God that I've ever heard are truly terrible arguments.

There are clear, rational evolutionary mechanisms by which we would come to have a belief in a god-like being that does not actually exist.

Etc., etc., etc., ad nauseam.

2. What are your feelings toward death? (In other words what happens when you die?)

I've touched on this briefly above; that we would naturally want, very badly, for there to be an eternal afterlife.  Because we would want this to be true so badly, we should be extra skeptical of such claims.  Bluntly, I see no satisfactory reason to believe in an afterlife, either in logical arguments or in evidence.  In addition, the concept of an afterlife contradicts known facts of reality - we can change the function of a person's "mind," a person's consciousness, very drastically with physical alterations of their material brain.  I think that this shows, pretty conclusively, that our "mind," or "soul" only exists as a function of our physical body.  Given this, how would you even attempt to give a rational explanation for our . . . well, for our brain surviving the death of our brain?

As for "what I feel" about death in a broader sense . . .  It is exactly because there is no deity or afterlife to redress the injustice that sometimes occurs in this material world that we need to take control of producing a just, fair, and safe world ourselves, instead of relying on a mythical father figure or looking ahead to a fictional afterlife.  It is exactly because we will not literally live forever that we should claim the one measure by which we will continue to "live" in any sense after we die - by making the world a better place for all persons while we are here.

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Tuesday, November 17, 2009

Ask an Atheist: What happens when you die?

Here's the second question that Dr. Brad Harrub asked me the other day:

"What are your feelings toward death) in other words, what happens when you die?"

To humans, we see a huge distinction between "life" and "death". We see a living person - their heart is beating, they are breathing, their brain is functional, the metabolize energy to keep these systems running - that person is alive. When we see a "dead" person, we see a body that no longer functions or operates in the same way it once did. A dead person does not breath, their heart does not beat, and their brain is nonfunctional. A dead person cannot metabolize energy and thus their body suffers from entropy - it breaks down. These are objective facts about dead individuals.

But really, the distinction between life and death in a broader sense is not so clear cut, just like the distinction between life and nonlife. Our bodies are teeming with countless life whether we consider ourselves alive or dead in the form of bacteria and viruses. The vast majority of the cells in our body are not human cells, but over 1000 species of microorganisms. In fact, it is estimated that the microorganisms in the average healthy human body outnumber human cells by a factor of 10:1, and we absolutely cannot survive without them, though they can certainly survive without us. If the human species is ever annihilated, the bacteria will go on living, having barely been dented by our presence.

I can imagine though that this is an unsatisfying answer, as you're probably wondering what an atheist thinks about what happens "after death" and whether or not I think our consciousness survives death. There is no evidence and no plausible mechanism by which out consciousness can survive brain death. It's sad to think that the buildings in my city will outlive me, that I will get to miss so many happenings in the world, and that my great great great great grandchildren will probably never know me personally. But no matter how much we want it and how much emotional attachment we have to the idea of our consciousness surviving death, we cannot change the evidence through sheer force of will. Going back to the clover idea in my previous email; no matter how much I desire for clover to cure heart disease, no amount of want can make it so.

I understand that believing there is "life after death" comforts people. It's not a pleasant thought that we have to lose everything we worked for, have all of the knowledge we have gained disappear in mere moments, and have some lives tragically stripped away by accident and disease. Our biological urges to stay alive are incredibly strong and that obviously enables us to survive as a species. We can't even fathom what it would be like to be "not alive". But if our consciousness doesn't survive death, it's not as if I'll be aware of the fact that I am dead, so as far as I'm aware, I am always alive.

I also think that it is worth it to be a good person and have a positive impact on the world, even if our life is only temporary. Is it worthless to spend hours building a beautiful sandcastle for everyone on the beach to see only because the tide will wash it away as soon as you've finished? All of those sandcastle builders would testify that it is - that the process of working hard and making something beautiful and amazing that will make the people around you feel a little bit of joy is worth it despite the fact that this beautiful amazing thing will disappear and be left only in the memories of those who got the chance to see it. So, in a way life is like a sandcastle.

I think a lot of the time atheists are accused of having this selfish mentality - Theists believe that if an atheist thinks there s no life after death, that they must believe they can be selfish and seek to derive as much pleasure out of their life as possible. I know a lot of atheists, and none of them think this way - they think the same way theists think - that they want to help people. Christians and atheists both want to have a positive impact on the world, and they want to sacrifice big parts of their lives for the sake of the lives of other people. I think the biggest differences is that Christians see themselves as serving god, and atheists/secular humanists see themselves as serving the world (and "the world" is not just limited to other humans. A lot of atheists are really concerned about the environment and the welfare of other living things just as much as the welfare of other humans). We don' expect an all-powerful being to swoop down like the ultimate deus ex machina to fix everything and restore order at some point in time. We have to restore order and seek justice ourselves.

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Monday, November 16, 2009

3H1P: Why did you become an atheist?

I'm starting a new series of blog posts in which commenters or emailers can ask an atheist (and maybe a pastor) questions, and we'll answer them on the blog.

The first question comes from none other than Dr. Brag Harrub, subject of this stupidly long series of blog posts in which we attended his Truth About Origins Seminar. I think Dr. Harrub intends to use my (and Flimsy's) answers in future presentations. Dr. Harrub asks:

"Why did you become an atheist?"

I actually answered this question in a series of 5 blog posts many moons ago (about 8 moons actually), But Dr. Harrub asked me to summarize it. If you've read this blog for more than five minutes you'll notice I suck abysmally at summarizing anything. This was my summary:

My parents raised me in a secular household. We did not attend church, pray, or talk much about religion at all. When I started to think more deeply about things in grade school and middle school, I wanted to believe in a higher power. For many years I believed that there was an infinite transcendent power out there and called that power god. I believed that god was so unfathomably powerful and infinite that any attempt to define god would be to put god in a box. So, when people told me they knew god felt a certain way or did a certain thing, they were putting god in a finite box and diminishing his infinitude. If god is infinite, anything you can say about him becomes unintelligible. It would be like thinking you know what the whole of civilization is like by observing one person's fingernail clipping.

When I was in graduate school (Earning my doctorate of occupational therapy. I'll be "Doctor" in 6 weeks!), I decided to look for the actual evidence for god. In the world of science-based medicine, if there is no evidence that a particular therapy has an effect on people beyond placebo or nonspecific effects, then that therapy is discarded in favor of therapies that do have a measurable effect. If god is real, and has an effect on the world, then that effect should be objectively measurable.  So I looked at all of the effects god is supposed to have on the world and formulated hypothesis about those effects and then measured them or looked at ways other people have measured them. I concluded that there is no evidence to support the existence of a personal god, and that some of the other definitions of god were unfalsifiable such that they were meaningless from an objective standpoint of making a hypothesis based on them. Atheism is
a conclusion I have come to based on lack of evidence.

Here is an analogy I like to use: let's pretend that I am a scientist, and I am convinced that clover cures heart disease. If I want to prove that clover cures heart disease, there is a process by which I need to do that. Anecdotal evidence of people claiming that clover cured them aren't enough. Testimonials aren't enough. We have to apply the scientific method to our hypothesis that "clover cures heart disease". So, let's say we run some experiments. We do double-blind, placebo controlled experiments in which clover is given to a group of people who have heart disease, and a placebo is given to another group of people with heart disease, and the people with heart disease and the scientists doing the outcome measures don't know who got what. After we experiment, we conclude that there is no difference.

But wait! We test again: we use different formulations of clover. We try having them drink it. Eat it. Distill it. Smoke it. use it as a suppository. Massage their feet with it. sit in the same room with it as it grows. extract it and concentrate it and try different variations of how much clover people are exposed to. Nothing works. The outcomes are the same - no one is cured of heart disease. No one gets better. People die at the same rate.

After all of this, is it right to think clover cures heart disease? Is there still the possibility that clover cures heart disease? Yes. There is still a remote possibility. But I am an acloverist. I don't believe clover cures heart disease. What I think abot god is the same as what you think about the clover.

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Sunday, November 15, 2009

3H1P: The pastor and the atheist(s)

I'm starting a new blog post series in which you - the reader – asks us – the Zizturbloggers – a question – and we answer it in a blog post.Your questions will be answered by:

Ziztur
and/or
Flimsy
and/or
Petter
and/or
.....
....
Pastor Keith!

That's right. We're actually going to have a pastor join this blog and answer the same questions us three obnoxious heathens answer. We'll also be doing some blog posts in which we offer point-counterpoint discussions on various topics. How cool is that? We hope you think it's pretty cool.

Aren't there questions you've always wanted to ask an atheist, or an atheist and a pastor, or three atheists and a pastor? I hope so.

If you're question has a short (and short is relative to the four of us) answer, we'll all answer it in one post. If it requires a lengthier answer, one of the heathens and P. Keith will tackle it.

Obviously, this will require input from YOU, so put your input into my happy comment box below:

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Saturday, November 14, 2009

We fail at protesting.

The other day, Westboro Baptist Church (the God Hates Fags folks) were in my glorious town of St. Louis, to protest a memorial service for a soldier held at a high school, a Jewish all-male high school, and the local JCC.

We planned a counter-protest with several other groups, but among my friends hardly anyone got to actually protest.

Reason: Though Westboro posted the times in which they were protesting, they actually held their little half-hour protests about 45 minutes early. We think it is so they could hopefully beat the rush of people arriving to counter them.

In any event, I noticed something peculiar. Whenever Westboro was in the local news about these specific three protests (which occurred all in the same day, within a few hours of each other) the only protest mentioned by the media was the protest related to the soldier. There was an eerie silence concerning the other locations, as if the soldier's memorial service took up so much time that they felt it was not worth the airtime to mention the other locations. We could chalk this up to "protesting dead soldiers sells, protesting Jewish high school does not" but I really feel like people should care about both issues equally.

At the very least, my friend The Alien made up about 30 signs, went to the protest and simply threw them out in the grass for random people to pick up and use. She chose lots of cool quotes like, "One pair of hands working accomplishes more than a thousand hands praying". I was very proud.

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Friday, November 13, 2009

Life does not begin at conception

One of the primary claims of the anti-abortion brigade is that “life begins at conception”, and because it is wrong to take a life, therefore it is wrong to abort a fetus (and perhaps wrong even to prevent a zygote from implanting by use of a UTI). However, this claim is not merely wrong, but ludicrously wrong.

Let me make an aside here. If you are of a religious bent, and if you believe in the existance of a soul, and if you believe that this soul is created, implanted, magicked into being, or otherwise attached to a developing human at some particular point in development, then of course that provides a logical point whereafter abortion may be seen as a crime against said soul. I think you are dead wrong about the existance of souls, but granted that premise, this objection to anti-abortionism does not apply to you. To you, all I have to say is this: Remember that your arguments are inherently non-secular and cannot carry force in a secular judicial system; and please remember that your arguments hold no force with those of us who are not religious.


With that out of the way, let’s restate the obvoius: Life does not begin at conception. Conception, in us sexually reproducing animals, consists of the fusion of gametes—the sperm fertilises the ovum. But, and this should be painfully obvious to everyone, the gametes are alive. You are the product of a living spermatozoon and a living ovum. Fertilisation did not mark the creation of life, only the fusion of two living cells into a single living cell.

This fusion is certainly a defining moment in your life. Barring mutation so unlikely that I expect it can be discounted, and excepting rare conditions like chimerism and mosaicism, it is the last event that defines your genetic makeup, when the chromosomes you inherit from your parents merge. It is, in a very real sense, a defining moment. It is not, however, the defining moment, because there are many. Even after fusion, not every zygote goes on to successfully implant, and early pregnancies often terminate spontaneously. The biologist Lewis Wolpert famously said that “It is not birth, marriage, or death, but gastrulation which is truly the most important time in your life”.

But before conception, a startling number of things had to happen in order to make you who you are. Before the fertilisation event was to matter at all, the specifics of meiosis in the germ line of each of your parents played as big a role in determining your genetic specifics as did the fertilisation itself: Meiosis, the process where a germ line cell divides into (haploid) gametes with half the chromosomal complement of a normal cell, is when the genetic contribution of each parent is determined. And of course any number of things had to happen very specifically in order to make you who you are, on this basis: Your parents had to have sex at just the right time when the spermatozoon and ovum each carrying half of your genes were alive and active. If they’d waited until next month, things would have been different…

But this is only the beginning (or the end, depending on your view). Those haploid cells, after all, were alive, each of them a living cell from one of your parents, whence they were produced by meiosis from diploid germ line cells. Each of those cells was the unlikely product of very specific meiosis, reproductive timing, and fertilisation by the (most likely four) people who were their parents…and the same goes for all of their parents…and that lineage goes back, centuries, millennia, millions of years, hundreds of millions of years. You are the product of a lineage of living cells that stretches back to the very dawn of sexual reproduction. Looking back further, you’re still the product of living cells, though the processes are different and lateral gene transfer makes the family tree a bit harder to draw…but ultimately, you are the scion of a family of cells—living cell to living cell to living cell—reaching back some 3.6 billion years—3,600,000,000 years—at a ballpark estimate.

That is when life began, and that is, in a sense, when your life began, too: It started then, and it hasn’t died since. Every single intermediary between you and the first primordial, primitive, living cell that serves as ancestor to all life on earth was alive. It started then, and in a sense, you’re just a heavily modified offshoot—3,600,000,000 years down the living line.

I find this an awesome fact to contemplate.

What, then, is so magical about conception? Nothing, really. It’s a defining moment in making you who you are, but it’s really just one of billions upon billions of defining moments. Causing the death of a zygote does exactly as much in preventing a particular potential person from coming about as does causing the death of a spermatozoon (e.g. by masturbating, by ejaculating outside a woman, by using a condom, or by doing nothing and letting the spermatozoon die and get reabsorbed into the body); as does wasting the life of an ovum (by menstruating, in the luteal or ischemic phase). But removing the possibility of a specific human being is even more ubiquitous; after all, every human alive represents millions of potential people lost, as the ones produced by the spermatozoa who lost the race would undoubtedly have been different.


My own opinions on abortion are not very well-defined. I am, of course, pro-choice, but since I’ve never been in a position where I’ve had to make a hard choice, I’ve never needed to figure out exactly what I think the hard lines are. What I do think, however, is that it is in no way wrong to destroy human tissue, while it is definitely wrong to destroy a moral human person.

The question, then, is what constitutes moral personhood. I will not pretend to have a clearcut answer. If I had to sit down and develop one, it would combine concepts like having thoughts, dreams, hopes, fears, and desires; taking part in emotional relationships (a reciprocal relationship); interacting (in some way) with people; acting as a moral agent, rather than merely being acted upon as a ‘moral object’.

It seems abundantly clear to me that no lump of human tissue can possibly meet my criteria unless it has a mind, which requires a working brain. After the brain works in some sense, I believe there is a window, a grey area, where I would in all likelihood agree that abortion may very well be morally acceptable—but this is beside the point I wish to make here, which is that until brain activity begins, I regard it as “no context”: Abortion prior to this is absolutely acceptable. (This may be around week 25 or so of a pregnancy; research shows that sustained EEG activity first appears in bursts around week 20, become sustained around week 22, and bilaterally synchronous around weeks 26–27.)


Once the position is taken that an early abortion does not, in fact, destroy a moral person, we are back to the notion of destroying “potential” persons. The problem is that we destroy potential persons all the time, no matter what we do. If we have sex, we destroy lots of potential persons (since most of the potential ones will never be, even if we do have children); whenever we don’t have sex even though we could, we are passively murdering potential persons, because we aren’t making children at all.

Modern biotechnology allows us to stretch this argument to a reductio ad absurdum without leaving the realm of the possible. In recent experiments (documented in some very nice articles in Nature), scientists have induced pluripotency in mouse cells and produced viable mice (fully viable, as some of them went on to reproduce). While cloning humans is likely to be much more difficult than cloning mice even on purely technical considerations, and it may well be impossible right now, it seems obvious that the technology is if not in our grasp, then certainly close to it, to produce viable humans from induced pluripotent stem cells. Taking things just a bit further, it may become possible to extract genetic material and inject it into pluripotent cells and so produce clones from any cell with intact genetic material.

Once the technology exists for doing this, the loss of any viable genetic material is, in a sense, the destruction of a potential human life. Scratching your head, cutting your hair or your nails, losing scrapings of epithelial material from your mouth, bleeding…every such act will prevent humans from being who might otherwise have been.

Unless you are willing to condemn this as murder, then any argument that boils down to “You are destroying potential life!” loses all force.

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Thursday, November 12, 2009

Fallacies and lies in the gay marriage debate

Opponents of gay rights often object to gay marriage on the basis that it is “not traditional”—“traditional marriage”, they say, never included same-sex unions; therefore, to allow such would be to subvert what marriage is about.

Skipping quickly past the most obvious flaws in this argument—viz., first, that “traditional” and “non-traditional” do not necessarily correlate to “good” and “bad” at all; and second, that a non-traditional marriage is still a marriage—it is still a flimsy argument, for a series of reasons. Since I seem to repeat myself in comment threads, I will summarize my arguments here for future reference.


The most oft-raised objection is that the tradition of marriage has changed over time, thus appeals to tradition are vague and empty. For instance, going back a few decades or centuries we will find changes in

  • whether people were encouraged or even allowed to choose their own spouses
  • whether marriages could be dissolved by divorce
  • whether women held equal power (legally) with their husbands
  • whether the spouses could have different ethnic, cultural, and/or religious backgrounds
  • and so on and so forth.

Some people misunderstand this argument and object that “same-sex unions were never part of the tradition!”—which is true, but completely misses the point. The point is that the tradition has always been plastic and has evolved over the decades and centuries, and rules have been changed or dropped—generally, it seems, as a delayed reaction to humanistic improvements in our culture. It is certainly true that “the spouses must be of different sexes” has always been one of those rules, but if other rules can be dropped, why can’t that one?

You may be reaching for the reply button to tell me that, wait!, there is a good reason!—that same-sex unions cannot “naturally” produce children, for instance. However, this is a red herring. If you must resort to any such argument, you are no longer arguing that gay marriage is wrong because it is non-traditional, but rather that it is wrong and non-traditional. If you want “It’s not traditional!” to be a reason against gay marriage, then you must be consistent. However, virtually nobody actually argues in favour of other, discarded aspects of the tradition. Therefore, “It’s not traditional!” is not really a motivation at all, but a rhetorical argument disingenuously wielded for want of better arguments.


While we are at it, let’s dismiss the motivation that same-sex marriages are invalid because they cannot result in children. First, this is simply untrue—lesbian couples can have children with the help of artificial insemination, or a male friend; gay male couples can have children with the aid of a surrogate mother; any gender configuration can raise children if they are adopted. Second, the people who argue that gay marriages should not be allowed because they do not result in children by “natural” means never seem to have the slightest urge to apply this criterion consistently, which would mean forbidding marriages

  • where the woman is post-menopausal
  • where the man is sterile or completely impotent
  • where the woman is infertile
  • where the man has had a vasectomy, or the woman a tubal ligation
  • where the spouses are biologically capable of having children, but have no desire or intention to do so, and use contraceptives to ensure it will not happen.

If your criterion is that “marriage is for procreation”, then you should oppose these types of marriage every bit as firmly as you oppose same-sex marriage. If you don’t, then whatever your real reason is, it clearly isn’t the procreation angle.


Finally, something that is often overlooked is that defenders of “traditional” marriage tend to speak as though there were only one tradition (their own, of course). But this is not so, and while we may live in a culture evolved from and dominated by Judeo-Christian tradition, it’s not the only one around. The tradition of male-male eros in ancient Greece is well-known; in modern times, it is fairly clear that so-called Boston marriages often (though far from always) were, in effect, lesbian partnerships.

Around the world, there have been many cultures and traditions that allow, encourage, or celebrate same-sex relationships. Anthropologists have found several dozen African populations with female-female marriages, as well as male-male unions; North American indigenous cultures have recognised various fluid gender identities; pre-modern China had several examples of same-sex marriages.

Thus, to say that “Same-sex marriage is not traditional!” comes with the implicit assumption of confining yourself to one or a particular set of cultures. It’s highly traditional in some parts of the world—it just so happens that these traditions are not the dominant ones in the Western world.


On a lighter note, I recently came across one of the worst arguments I have ever heard in this debate:

To call a homosexual union a "marriage" is to equate it to "traditional marriage," which it is not. Again, this has nothing to do with discrimination, but changing the institution and definition of marriage and violating the first amendment right of freedom of religion. This includes religious expression.

This is so perversely wrong that it’s actually funny. Marriage, as it is currently defined in the United States, is constrained by the rules of the Judeo-Christian cultural background of the European settlers who invaded North America. To allow gay marriage would obviously not infringe on the right of Christians to marry people of the opposite sex. It might offend them, and they might for various absurd reasons feel that it devalues them, but it does nothing to prevent them from engaging in exactly the same religious rituals and religious ceremonies that they already do. It would not affect their rights—only the rights of the same-sex couples who would now be allowed to marry.

If anything (and this is what makes it so perverse), the current laws could be construed as a First Amendment violation! After all, by forbidding same-sex unions, the government is promoting one religion’s view of marriage (the Christian one) over the views of certain other religions (e.g. some African and indigenous North American ones). The current state of things has one religious tradition entrenched in the law—which is precisely what the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment was written to prevent. (I’m not saying that a strong case could necessarily be made that “marriage for heteros only” is an Establishment violation, but if we are to talk violation, it is clearly the case that the status quo favours Christianity, rather than that a change would infringe on anybody’s religious rights.)


A great deal more could be said on this subject. This is not a piece of advocacy—I’m sure it’s clear that I do advocate recognising same-sex marriages every bit as much as hetero-sex marriages—but the aim here is to discuss some common fallacies and counterfactual claims that have been repeatedly issued in the course of debate. The next time these arise, I will simply provide a link to this post and say, “Here, go see why you are wrong”.

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Tuesday, November 10, 2009

War on Christmas 2009

Time for the 4th annual War on Christmas - War on Christmas, 2009!

This year, I am going to say a lot of the same things I said last year, mostly because the argument has not changed, but the tactics of certain Christian organizations have gotten stronger. Beware – the War FOR Christmas is heating up, and the War for Christmas army is at the ready.

The War on Christmas is supposedly a "secular war" waged against Christmas. Christians all over the world don't like it when people don't recognize their holiday, so much so that they are willing to force businesses to use the word "Christmas" in their advertising. They are willing to boycott businesses that don't. The message to businesses is clear: use Christmas in your advertising, or we'll stab you in the eye with our wallets.

While secular people are minding their own business, Christians all over the USA are boycotting businesses that don't happen to have chosen to use "Christmas" in their advertising. They (the War on Christmas folks) have gone so far as to set up a website wherein one can update the "naughty" or "nice" list. The "naughty" list is those businesses that allegedly don't use Christian language in their advertisements, and the "nice" list is those that do. You can also find other
websites devoted to making sure everyone knows just how much more important Christmas is then every other holiday at the end of the year. This is mostly done in the name of "anti political-correctness" but ends up being more about intolerance - intolerance at businesses trying to include other groups of people who celebrate minority holidays during the holidays.

Why, why is it so important that people acknowledge your holiday that you will refuse to shop at businesses that don't? I'm glad atheists don't act like this. Yet secular people are the ones painted as being "Grinches".  It seems to me that the Grinches are the ones insisting once again that they are being persecuted and stamped out, organizing boycotts and to shove Christmas down the throats of everyone else. I know it hurts when a tiny slice of your monopoly on the country gets taken away or when you find out that there are people in the world who aren't exactly like you. But really, those guys who care enough to boycott businesses are acting like a child forced to share one toy out of the hundreds in his toy box with his cousin.

I don't know any atheist, Muslim, Jew, or anyone else complaining about Christmas advertising. I know of no huge organizations (such as the Catholic League) of non-Christians insisting that their flock boycott businesses that display Christmas-related schlock. There is a small movement of people dedicated to the war on the commercialization of Christmas and even that is not a war on the religious aspect, it's a war pro-the religious aspect. Really, it's nice when people recognize that not everyone is a Christian. If you say Merry Christmas to me, I don't care all that much. When you cry victim and insist with your wallets that Christmas be part of advertising, I start to care.

Here is the message I hear: everybody who is a Christian has the right to demand that retail sales clerks intuit that they are Christian and thus wish them a merry Christmas - affirming their own personal "reason for the season". Affirm that we both love baby Jesus or THIS MEANS WAR.  If you don't recognize exactly what we recognize on this day, we will hate you for being liberal atheist politically correct secular scumbags. Are people really serious when you say it's evil and suppressive to call an annual holiday party at your work a holiday party instead of a Christmas party?

I do think it's silly to call "Christmas trees" "holiday trees". That would be like calling a Menorah a "holiday candelabra". So while I do agree that political correctness can go too far, "happy holidays" doesn't cross the line. Even if I think it's silly, I am not going to wage a war on businesses that call Christmas Trees holiday trees and force them to call them Christmas trees. These are just words. It's not worth getting bent out of shape over. Also, why aren't Christians annoyed that secular businesses like Walmart use their religious holiday as a marketing ploy to get you to buy junk you and your loved ones don't need? If anything, they should be boycotting retailers for using Christmas as a way to capitalize on their religious beliefs. Supposedly Christmas is about the joy of the birth of Jesus, right?

It's not as if secular people are stopping people from celebrating the holiday they wish to celebrate. There is no ban on Christmas. As much as you love to celebrate it, it's also inescapable. We couldn't avoid it even if we wanted to unless we hid in our houses with the TV off all day - and even then. Why can't I buy stamps or milk on Christmas? Whether we like it or not, we're going to be involved in recognizing the holiday sorry, Christmas. No one is being denied their right to celebrate Christmas - though I am certainly being denied my right to have just another day. I can't ignore Christmas, because it is impossible to ignore.

Let's concoct a fun little scenario. Let's say atheism becomes so widespread that atheists get some random day designated as "Godless day". Two months before godless day, businesses all over start putting up "Merry godlessness" decorations. We devote entire radio stations to music promoting atheism, and we play atheist musak in retail stores. We organize parades that take up city streets, throw decorations up everywhere, and generally stuff our reason for the season down your throats.  On godless day, most businesses close down so that you can't get your oil changed, your laundry done, or mail any packages. Moreover, if businesses don't acknowledge Atheist Day in their advertising, we organize a boycott. If you're a war on Christmas pundit, this probably sounds incredibly crappy and offensive, doesn't it? What about the guys who don't celebrate atheism? Are they to simply fade into the background and be absorbed by our festivities? Well no. Try to think about this from another perspective – the best way to do that is to pick a religion or a worldview you don't especially agree with and pretend that they are doing the same thing you are doing.

Being civil and polite means recognizing that people are different, and not making those differences a point of conflict and contention. Yes, it's okay to say Merry Christmas: or Happy Hanukkah, or Merry Kwanza, or Happy Just Another Day. It's okay to encourage people to say Happy Holidays. It is not okay to force people to recognize your holiday. It's not okay, as a business, to insist your workers don't say Merry Christmas - thankfully, that's never actually happened.

Merry Friday!

Happy War for Christmas!

Happy Just another Day!

Happy I get to take a day off work even though I don't celebrate this holiday day!

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Monday, November 9, 2009

Churches we Recommend: possibly changing


If you've ever taken a look at the sidebar of my blog, you'll notice that there is a list under the heading, "WE HEATHEN ATHEISTS RECOMMEND THESE CHURCHES, OMG" where we actually recommend several churches. Why would some atheists recommend churches, you ask? These churches are on this list because we found their teachings to be outstandingly moral* and ethical. These are all churches that we "faith infiltrated" and were pleasantly surprised to see that they advocated ideas such as tolerance of other faiths, helping people without proselytizing, the importance of church/state separation, the messages that nonbelievers are not destroying the world, etc. We've visited 32 churches since we began our Faith Infiltration project one year ago.

We recommend churches because we think that some people need religion – they need the community, the spirituality, the little bit of supernaturalism in their lives – and that if they need to belong to a religious community, there are some out there who are a candle in the dark and a force of good in a world that is increasingly polemic.

One of our favorite churches was Copper Creek Christian Church. Most of our reasons for recommending this church were that we found the philosophy of the pastor, Keith, to be very ethical and moral. Case in point: he showed up at one of our local St. Louis Atheist meetups and we became fast friends with him.
We learned recently that the board members at Copper Creek voted to "let go" of Keith due to "leadership differences". To put it bluntly: he was fired from his position as pastor at the church. Keith explained simply that some of the reasons we liked his church and chose to recommend it are ultimately the reason that he is now unemployed.

Churches have every right to fire pastors if the pastor is not in line with their philosophies, so I am not suggesting that Copper Creek acted in an illegal or discriminatory manner. However we must say that we are disappointed with this. Keith was really doing something different with his church.

We intend to infiltrate Copper Creek again. We'd like to hear what the new leaders have to say, and see if their philosophy has changed. Sometimes, one person can make all the difference. Check back with us – we also intend to interview Keith to get more details, and we've contacted the leadership at the church as well.

*If you want more details about why the churches we recommended are moral and ethical, check out our Faith Infiltration of those churches here:

Copper Creek
Divine Science
Unitarian Universalist

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Sunday, November 8, 2009

Trend: blame us for everything

Man, we get blamed for everything! Check out this article about Britin's chief rabbi, Lord Sacks. Lord Sacks was knighted in 2005 for services to interfaith relations.

In his article, Sacks blames Europe's falling birth rate on Neo-Darwinism. He says that "Europe was the most secular region in the world and the only continent seeing populations fall." And thus blames secularism for a reduction in birth rate. Apparently, Neo-Darwinists are so freaking selfish they don't have kids, because kids would get in the way of their rampant materialism, instant gratification, and consumerism. We aren't prepared for the sacrifices of parenthood. He said "parenthood involved He said parenthood involved massive sacrifices of money, attention, time and emotional energy." Apparently those are things secularists don't have.

Lord hackey-Sacks said:

"Wherever you turn today - Jewish, Christian or Muslim - the more religious the community, the larger on average are their families.

"The major assault on religion today comes from the neo-Darwinians."

Really, people who believe in evolution are to blame for falling populations?

Let's do a quick what-if. What if "Neo-Darwinians were actually having more kids than religious people? If that were the case, Sacks could say the same thing – we're assaulting religion and having lots of kids because the Neo-Darwinian model says that the purpose of life is to produce children like rabbits. It would prove how depraved we are and how lightly we take matters such as sex and childbirth. It would prove we are selfish because we're overpopulating the world with little regard for the environment or the people around us.

It doesn't really matter what we do. We're bad, bad people.

Fellow blogger Linden commented on this silliness:

Call me scientific but might it just be that the number of people surviving birth has increased: 140 infant deaths per 1,000 births in 1900 to 5.4 per 1,000 in 1997. With more people surviving birth you don't need as many children, life expectancy has also increased (75 for boys, 80 for girls in 1999 compared to 45 and 49 respectively in 1901). A longer life expectancy reduces the pressure to have children at a young age, or at all.

Next, we'll be blamed for global warming.

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Saturday, November 7, 2009

Marriage Equality - Downed Again

So, Ziztur and I have been alternately hanging our heads and clenching our fists over marriage rights having lost at the voting booth again in Maine this past week.

I still continually fail to understand why someone would oppose gay marriage.  There are many positions on issues that I can at least understand how someone would think that way, even if I disagree with their conclusion (e.g., being pro-life, being a libertarian, being a theist, etc.).  Opposition to gay rights, however, continues to just baffle me.  Even as a very young child, raised in a very conservative religious household, I cannot ever remember thinking that such discrimination was ethically defensible.

Even more annoying, even though American voters are apparently still opposed to gay marriage, I cannot seem to find anyone who wishes to actually engage with me on the issue.  It's the topic that people don't seem to want to discuss.

I came to the conclusion long ago that marriage should, in a nutshell, be privatized.  Instead of the government, at any level, recognizing "marriage," have the government recognize only civil unions or partnerships between adult citizens.  Such civil partnerships would be the determining factor in all legal rights and responsibilities.  Then, private citizens can call their legal partnership whatever they want.  They can have a "marriage" if they want a traditional or religious partnership, and others can choose to simply have a civil, legal contract.

I've heard many people advocate this.  This is the view of DJ Grothe, Vice President and Director of Outreach Programs for the Center for Inquiry (and good friend of me and Ziztur's).  This point is made in detail by J.D. Tuccille in an article at the Examiner.  In particular, he suggests that this isn't the extreme, fringe position that it once was.

I've yet to discuss this alternative with anyone opposed to gay marriage outright.  I suppose, if they're perceptive at all, they'll just reply, "well, then, any old gay couple could just get a partnership and call it a marriage - that's no better!"  Yes, yes they could.  In the same way that anybody can claim that believe almost anything for themselves in America.  For example, in many people's religious perspective, "God" specifically means the deity described in the Christian Bible.  This does not legally preclude others from defining "God" in vastly differing ways.  It is not a matter of religious freedom to define common, public terms as your religion states them to be.

This is my question to everyone who opposes gay marriage; what do you think of this alternative?  If you oppose gay marriage, would you be opposed to getting government out of the definition of marriage altogether?  Why or why not?  Don't hesitate to comment and share your thoughts.

In other, local news, Westboro Baptist Church (yes, the "God hates fags" zombies) is coming to St. Louis next week, apparently on Thursday the 12th.  Our local alternative music station is 105.7 The Point, and it's two morning jockeys, Woody and Rizutto, are organizing a counter-protest.  The first protest and counter-protest of the day will be earlier in the afternoon, so Ziztur and I can't make it, but we're looking at connecting with counter-protests, or starting our own, for the later ones in the evening.

In even more news, xkcd wins again.

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Friday, November 6, 2009

Science and Tonsil Hockey

The Telegraph UK reports a newly published theory on the evolutionary origins of makin' out.  Scientists have discovered that a woman's immune system is far more robust if she's been exposed to Cytomegalovirus before pregnancy.  This type of Herpes virus is especially dangerous to fetuses if the mother has never been exposed, or even if the mother hasn't been exposed very much.

Interestingly, scientists have found that straight-up oral transmission is one of the most effective means of spreading the virus, particularly prior to prengancy.  Some theorize that this would be a strong enough evolutionary pressure to explain, at least in part, we human's love of smoochin'.

I had always presumed that kissing was a simple consequence of our evolutionary oral fixation - a combination of gluttony and lust.  This new science of virus-swapping is interesting, though.  And so much sexier.

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Wednesday, November 4, 2009

Making fun of Catholics

I just thought I would let you guys know that attacking Catholics is not really clever, witty or funny.

So says Greg Crave, vice chancellor of the Australian Catholic University, in his opinion piece published in the Australian National Times.

This is another one of those opinion pieces that are so deliciously ironic and hypocritical that I hardly feel observant to point it out, but point it out I must.

Sir Crave's piece starts out with the bold headline: "A plague of atheists has descended, and Catholics are the target" with the subheadline, "Attacking Christians is not really clever, witty or funny" and then proceeds to write a piece that appears to be an attempt to attack atheists in a way that is clever, witty and funny.

He begins by saying:

From time immemorial, this world has been troubled by plagues. From bogong moths in Canberra to frogs in biblical Egypt, unwelcome and unlovely creatures have the awkward habit of turning up in bulk.

Just now, we are facing one of our largest and least appealing infestations. … we are beset by atheists.

Wow. Atheists – fellow human beings who lack belief in god – are one of the largest and least appealing plague infestations of unwelcome and unlovely creatures. I guess it is not clever, witty or funny to insult Christians, but it is clever, witty and funny to compare atheists to plague infestations.

Let's think about this. Atheists who are vice chancellors for universities do not write opinion pieces in national newspapers claiming that it is not witty to attack atheists (who have been attacked since the dawn of religion) and that Catholics are the largest and most unappealing plague infestation of unwelcome and unlovely creatures.

There are idiots in every camp, and if an atheist behaved this badly, I would call that atheist out on his hypocritical xenophobic, bigoted hate speech immediately.

Crave goes on to explain that "traditional" atheists "tended to be quiet blokes called Algie with ancillary interests in nudist ceremonies, who were perfectly happy as long as you pretended to accept a pamphlet in Flinders Lane.

Apparently, the good atheists are the ones who keep their godless mouths shut about their godlessness. I am not Australian so I don't know what the references to Algie and Flinders Lane are, nor do I get the reference to nudist ceremonies. Crave apparently does not mind the atheists who are quiet, but decries the "new" atheists who are

As brash, noisy and confident as an electric kettle.

That's very brash, noisy and confident of Crave to proclaim these things about atheists, isn't it? He goes on to say that the "new" atheists are targeting Catholics in particular. He thinks this is odd, given the proliferation of other religions for us to target and surmises that we attack the Catholic Church because doing so is the equivalent of "nuking the Pentagon" and "Guerilla bands of Baptists and Pentecostals can be liquidated at leisure."

Nice! Crave managed to insult non-Catholics as well as atheists by completely diminishing all that they have works for by referring to them as "Guerilla bands" as if they are meeting in huddled corners of abandoned buildings. He does this in the same paragraph that he compares atheists to terrorists.

Sir Crave, make no mistake: we have issue with parts of all religions. The Catholic Church is a very large organization and it is unique in the way in which it functions as well as its vast historical significance to the current culture. When you have an issue with certain beliefs, you tend to spend more time targeting the beliefs that are most pervasive in society. Jesus is central to Catholicism, so you spend a lot of time talking about Jesus. Sin is a big issue, so you spend lots of time talking about sin. The date of Jesus' birth is not central to your doctrines, so you spend much less time targeting that for discussion. This is perfectly logical and the way that most people manage their time or focus. Instead, he portrays us as a petty group of people attacking Catholics because it might mean someone will pay attention to us.

Crave goes on to attack other religions (not the superb hypocrisy here) proving that what he means by "Attacking Christians is not really clever, witty or funny" is "Attacking the Catholic Church is not really clever, witty or funny – but attacking everyone else IS."

Catholics have the undeniable advantage that they demonstrably believe in something. Attacking some of the more swinging Christian denominations might mean upsetting people who believe a good deal less than the average atheist

He proceeds to use lots of insulting adjectives in an apparent attempt at wit, referring to atheists as, "a diverting pastime", "designer atheism", "common or garden atheist", "tabloid atheist", "atheistic bigotry". Let's imagine for a moment that these adjectives were applied to Catholics. Catholicism is a diverting pastime. Designer Catholicism. Common or Garden Catholicism. Tabloid Catholicism. Catholic bigotry.

But Oh no! atheists are bigoted for pointing out that some Catholics are bigoted.

In an average week of atheistic bigotry in the Melbourne Media, we can expect to learn that Catholics endorse child molestation, hate all other religions, would re-introduce the crusades and the auto de fe at the slightest opportunity, despise women, wish to persecute homosexuals, greedily divert public moneys for their own religious purposes, subvert public health care, brainwash children, and are masterminding the spread of the cane toad across north Australia

Um…Here's the thing. I do not hear atheists (even Australian ones) claiming in the media that Catholics do all of those things in the above paragraph. We say things like this: "This particular Catholic demonstrably hates other religions. Here are some specific examples…" which gets strawmanned into… well… this. If atheists do say this, then I do not agree with them. Even if they do make these blanket strawman statements, Crave is the pot calling the kettle black. Of course, when he wants to point out examples of "atheist bigotry", he provides no references to the claims being made.

Apparently, Crave thinks we are supposed to ignore or politely dismiss Christians. But he is not ignoring or politely dismissing us.

The end of his piece reads: "There is nothing funny, witty of clever about hate."

You're right. Sir Crave – you are a bigoted, hateful individual, as evidenced by your writing. Please. Imagine that someone were writing a piece as scathing as yours in a national newspaper about Catholicism. If the "media" has something negative to say about Catholicism, it is usually to point out some FACT. It is a fact that there is an issue in the Catholic Church concerning child sexual abuse by priests. It is a fact that some Catholics are hateful to other religions. It is a fact that some Catholics condone treating women as inferior to men. It is a fact that the Catholic Church persecutes homosexuals. It is a fact that the Catholic Church uses public money for religious purposes. It is a fact that the Catholic Church has spoken out against public health care. It is a fact that the Catholic Church raises children to believe in the tenants of Catholicism, sometimes using psychologically subversive techniques. Can you imagine a group of schoolchildren being forced to recite passages from The God Delusion on a weekly basis and being smacked if they say "god bless you" when someone sneezes? I don't know what that reference to the cane toad is, unless Crave means that atheists are being bigoted when they compare Catholics to a plague. Yes, it is bigoted when you compare a group of people to the plague. Crave needs to take a good long look in the mirror.

I'd really recommend reading Craves whole article – it's the most ironic mishmash of hypocrisy I have read in a long time. I only included a few select quotes.

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Tuesday, November 3, 2009

Tiny Halloween Story

During the Halloween party at my internship, I was seated next to a group of people in a circular table, wearing a skeleton costume. Next to me sat a woman in a wheelchair with pipe-cleaners arranged artfully such that her wheelchair wheels looked like spider webs. Across from me sat a husband and wife. Both were not dressed "in costume", but the husband wore a pair of pants and a flannel shirt.

At some point, while we munched on pizza, Mr. NonCostume took several glances at my happy humanist pendant. He then asked, "Okay, what am I dressed as?"

I looked at him. I blinked. I opened my mouth to say something, thought about it, and then said, "Um.. I have no idea?" He stood, and asked if "that was better".

No. Not so much. Mr. Flannel-and-Jeans.

Finally, he exclaimed, "I'm a Jesus-Freak!" and shot me a wide grin.

I nodded, and said, "Oh!" not sure exactly how serious he was. Once he began talking to me earnestly about how much the lord had blessed him, I gathered that he may be serious. Shortly thereafter, he showed me he and his wife's matching wedding bands: they both had crosses on them. All the while, he shot passing glances at my little humanist.

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Monday, November 2, 2009

Taking Offense

Yes, this liberal atheist loves his country, and, in part, here's why.

This week, the Obama administration and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton clearly and unambiguously dismissed the UN's proposed anti-blasphemy resolutions.  It was stated without reservation that there is no right to not be offended by opinions that differ from your own.

At rock bottom, America understands that Freedom of Religion means the freedom to both believe and to blaspheme.  Sure, some people just don't seem to get it, especially on the right wing of politics.  Take this recent dust-up over a bit on "Curb Your Enthusiasm," a show on HBO:



You can imagine how some Christian groups, particularly the Catholic League and even the Council on American-Islamic Relations are in an uproar over this, but they're not the only ones.

I often listen to Fox News pundits for a laugh.  The three I usually catch, in the morning, on my lunch break, and in the evening if Ziztur and I go anywhere are Jamie Allman, Glenn Beck, and Michael Savage.  All of these have ranted in the days following this show about, basically, "How dare people offend Christians."

Why do people react like this?  Do heathens like us get offended like this?  What could we even compare this to?  Sketches of Charles Darwin portrayed as an ape?  No atheist I know cares about a comedic mockery of any public figure, even people we greatly respect.

I'd like to think that a majority of Americans comprehend this.  It's pretty simple, people - nobody has a right to go their whole lives being unoffended.  If somebody mocks your beliefs or opinions, explain how they are mistaken.  Don't just react in a shocked way and expect people who disagree with you to keep quiet.  That may work on some, but keep in mind that there are plenty of people (like Ziztur and I) who will just mock you all the harder for it.  And passing legislation against offending people's most ridiculous beliefs is pretty damn close to social evil.

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