Proof...
Labels: just life, local, Stuff Ziztur Likes
Labels: just life, local, Stuff Ziztur Likes
I have a good Mormon friend who supports gay marriage rights, but also believes that homosexuality is a sin that should not be tolerated within his church. He's a staunch supporter of civil unions, but believes that churches should have the right to be as discriminatory as they want. His argument is that we should work to change the law, but not people's beliefs or practices, especially not through legal means. I tend to think of this in terms of desegregation -- should shop owners have the right to refuse service to black people?
I'm reminded of the news story the other day about the pastor in (Florida? I think?) who refused to marry the interracial couple, and there was something of an outraged hullabaloo about it. (And yes, I just spelled hullabaloo correctly on the first try. I'm pretty awesome). Yet many, many supporters of gay marriage feel that churches should have every right to deny their services to gay couples.
So, with the lengthy preamble out of the way, my question is this -- to what degree should we lobby for laws that in effect infringe on an organization's discriminatory practices, religious or otherwise?
-EdW
Option 1: "Yes, the Bible says that it is an abomination for two men to sleep together. However, that's said in the book of Leviticus. It also says that it's an abomination to eat shellfish. You can't pick and choose your rules which you will follow and which ones you will not. Do you eat shrimp? Then you are a hypocrite to discriminate against homosexuals."
Option 2: "Yes, the Bible says that it is an abomination for two men to sleep together. However, that's said in the book of Leviticus. That book is part of the Old Testament … the Old Covenant. Those rules don't apply to Christians today, because Jesus changed the way we relate to God. Our relationship with God is based on grace. This is why it's okay for a Christian to eat shellfish today, even though that's also called an abomination. Make sense?Though similar, many Christians will feel attacked as a hypocrite by option #1, while they will actually be surprised by the depth of insight in option #2 and it can lead to further conversation. Discussing how to apply the Old Testament will be a much more productive conversation if you are trying to change the heart and mind of a Christian.
I have a good Mormon friend who supports gay marriage rights, but also believes that homosexuality is a sin that should not be tolerated within his church. He's a staunch supporter of civil unions, but believes that churches should have the right to be as discriminatory as they want. His argument is that we should work to change the law, but not people's beliefs or practices, especially not through legal means. I tend to think of this in terms of desegregation -- should shop owners have the right to refuse service to black people?
I'm reminded of the news story the other day about the pastor in (Florida? I think?) who refused to marry the interracial couple, and there was something of an outraged hullabaloo about it. (And yes, I just spelled hullabaloo correctly on the first try. I'm pretty awesome). Yet many, many supporters of gay marriage feel that churches should have every right to deny their services to gay couples.
So, with the lengthy preamble out of the way, my question is this -- to what degree should we lobby for laws that in effect infringe on an organization's discriminatory practices, religious or otherwise?
-EdWGay marriage is certainly a complicate issue. I think that there are two issues regarding gay marriage: what is ultimately most ethical, and what is ultimately most probable or practical. I believe that ultimately, that the government defining marriage to only include "one man and one woman" is a violation of the first amendment. Ideally, the government should untangle its figurative hands from the definition of marriage and let people define it as it suits their particular beliefs. I don't really agree with the "incentives" the government offers for married people, because by offering those incentives, it not only restricts the definition of marriage but it promotes that particular definition. Perhaps this makes me ever so slightly libertarian, but I don't think that one particular view of marriage should be given priority over another view and I do not think that a particular restrictive definition of marriage should be enforced by the government.
I've read that most Christians are ok with evolution. But the truth of evolution shows that the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden is a myth, hence there was no "Fall", no "Original Sin". Without "Original Sin" there is no need for "Salvation". Jesus is pointless. So, how can a Christian accept evolution?I would like to question the initial premise of this question that most Christians are okay with evolution. I'm glad that you prefaced this factoid with "I've read" rather than simply proclaiming it as a fact – it shows that you're likely to know the difference between what people claim and what is actually true.
Labels: Ask-a-Q, atheism, culture, Intelligent Design, statistics
Hi, this is for Pastor Keith. I've read that most Christians are ok with evolution. But the truth of evolution shows that the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden is a myth, hence there was no "Fall", no "Original Sin". Without "Original Sin" there is no need for "Salvation". Jesus is pointless. So, how can a Christian accept evolution? -MitchThanks for the question and for the opportunity to address it. In order to attempt an answer to your overall question – "How can a Christian accept evolution?" – I must first make an adjustment to one of the fundamental assumptions in your request.
Labels: Ask-a-Q, Intelligent Design, P.Keith
Labels: atheism, just life, local, Stuff Ziztur Likes
What are your feelings toward death (in other words, what happens when you die)?I'm not a huge fan of death. I could do without it. But, like Anton Chigurh, it just keeps coming regardless of whether or not I approve. So I vacillate between fearing and running from death like Llewelyn Moss, or accepting its insatiability and living my short life to the full like Sheriff Bell. To state the obvious, my feelings toward death are not positive.
Labels: Ask-a-Q, culture, P.Keith, philosophy
Labels: atheism, just life, Stuff Ziztur Likes
One of the primary claims of the anti-abortion brigade is that “life begins at conception”, and because it is wrong to take a life, therefore it is wrong to abort a fetus (and perhaps wrong even to prevent a zygote from implanting by use of a UTI). However, this claim is not merely wrong, but ludicrously wrong.
Let me make an aside here. If you are of a religious bent, and if you believe in the existance of a soul, and if you believe that this soul is created, implanted, magicked into being, or otherwise attached to a developing human at some particular point in development, then of course that provides a logical point whereafter abortion may be seen as a crime against said soul. I think you are dead wrong about the existance of souls, but granted that premise, this objection to anti-abortionism does not apply to you. To you, all I have to say is this: Remember that your arguments are inherently non-secular and cannot carry force in a secular judicial system; and please remember that your arguments hold no force with those of us who are not religious.
With that out of the way, let’s restate the obvoius: Life does not begin at conception. Conception, in us sexually reproducing animals, consists of the fusion of gametes—the sperm fertilises the ovum. But, and this should be painfully obvious to everyone, the gametes are alive. You are the product of a living spermatozoon and a living ovum. Fertilisation did not mark the creation of life, only the fusion of two living cells into a single living cell.
This fusion is certainly a defining moment in your life. Barring mutation so unlikely that I expect it can be discounted, and excepting rare conditions like chimerism and mosaicism, it is the last event that defines your genetic makeup, when the chromosomes you inherit from your parents merge. It is, in a very real sense, a defining moment. It is not, however, the defining moment, because there are many. Even after fusion, not every zygote goes on to successfully implant, and early pregnancies often terminate spontaneously. The biologist Lewis Wolpert famously said that “It is not birth, marriage, or death, but gastrulation which is truly the most important time in your life”.
But before conception, a startling number of things had to happen in order to make you who you are. Before the fertilisation event was to matter at all, the specifics of meiosis in the germ line of each of your parents played as big a role in determining your genetic specifics as did the fertilisation itself: Meiosis, the process where a germ line cell divides into (haploid) gametes with half the chromosomal complement of a normal cell, is when the genetic contribution of each parent is determined. And of course any number of things had to happen very specifically in order to make you who you are, on this basis: Your parents had to have sex at just the right time when the spermatozoon and ovum each carrying half of your genes were alive and active. If they’d waited until next month, things would have been different…
But this is only the beginning (or the end, depending on your view). Those haploid cells, after all, were alive, each of them a living cell from one of your parents, whence they were produced by meiosis from diploid germ line cells. Each of those cells was the unlikely product of very specific meiosis, reproductive timing, and fertilisation by the (most likely four) people who were their parents…and the same goes for all of their parents…and that lineage goes back, centuries, millennia, millions of years, hundreds of millions of years. You are the product of a lineage of living cells that stretches back to the very dawn of sexual reproduction. Looking back further, you’re still the product of living cells, though the processes are different and lateral gene transfer makes the family tree a bit harder to draw…but ultimately, you are the scion of a family of cells—living cell to living cell to living cell—reaching back some 3.6 billion years—3,600,000,000 years—at a ballpark estimate.
That is when life began, and that is, in a sense, when your life began, too: It started then, and it hasn’t died since. Every single intermediary between you and the first primordial, primitive, living cell that serves as ancestor to all life on earth was alive. It started then, and in a sense, you’re just a heavily modified offshoot—3,600,000,000 years down the living line.
I find this an awesome fact to contemplate.
What, then, is so magical about conception? Nothing, really. It’s a defining moment in making you who you are, but it’s really just one of billions upon billions of defining moments. Causing the death of a zygote does exactly as much in preventing a particular potential person from coming about as does causing the death of a spermatozoon (e.g. by masturbating, by ejaculating outside a woman, by using a condom, or by doing nothing and letting the spermatozoon die and get reabsorbed into the body); as does wasting the life of an ovum (by menstruating, in the luteal or ischemic phase). But removing the possibility of a specific human being is even more ubiquitous; after all, every human alive represents millions of potential people lost, as the ones produced by the spermatozoa who lost the race would undoubtedly have been different.
My own opinions on abortion are not very well-defined. I am, of course, pro-choice, but since I’ve never been in a position where I’ve had to make a hard choice, I’ve never needed to figure out exactly what I think the hard lines are. What I do think, however, is that it is in no way wrong to destroy human tissue, while it is definitely wrong to destroy a moral human person.
The question, then, is what constitutes moral personhood. I will not pretend to have a clearcut answer. If I had to sit down and develop one, it would combine concepts like having thoughts, dreams, hopes, fears, and desires; taking part in emotional relationships (a reciprocal relationship); interacting (in some way) with people; acting as a moral agent, rather than merely being acted upon as a ‘moral object’.
It seems abundantly clear to me that no lump of human tissue can possibly meet my criteria unless it has a mind, which requires a working brain. After the brain works in some sense, I believe there is a window, a grey area, where I would in all likelihood agree that abortion may very well be morally acceptable—but this is beside the point I wish to make here, which is that until brain activity begins, I regard it as “no context”: Abortion prior to this is absolutely acceptable. (This may be around week 25 or so of a pregnancy; research shows that sustained EEG activity first appears in bursts around week 20, become sustained around week 22, and bilaterally synchronous around weeks 26–27.)
Once the position is taken that an early abortion does not, in fact, destroy a moral person, we are back to the notion of destroying “potential” persons. The problem is that we destroy potential persons all the time, no matter what we do. If we have sex, we destroy lots of potential persons (since most of the potential ones will never be, even if we do have children); whenever we don’t have sex even though we could, we are passively murdering potential persons, because we aren’t making children at all.
Modern biotechnology allows us to stretch this argument to a reductio ad absurdum without leaving the realm of the possible. In recent experiments (documented in some very nice articles in Nature), scientists have induced pluripotency in mouse cells and produced viable mice (fully viable, as some of them went on to reproduce). While cloning humans is likely to be much more difficult than cloning mice even on purely technical considerations, and it may well be impossible right now, it seems obvious that the technology is if not in our grasp, then certainly close to it, to produce viable humans from induced pluripotent stem cells. Taking things just a bit further, it may become possible to extract genetic material and inject it into pluripotent cells and so produce clones from any cell with intact genetic material.
Once the technology exists for doing this, the loss of any viable genetic material is, in a sense, the destruction of a potential human life. Scratching your head, cutting your hair or your nails, losing scrapings of epithelial material from your mouth, bleeding…every such act will prevent humans from being who might otherwise have been.
Unless you are willing to condemn this as murder, then any argument that boils down to “You are destroying potential life!” loses all force.
Labels: biases, definitions, ethics, fallacies, morality, Petter, pro-choice
Opponents of gay rights often object to gay marriage on the basis that it is “not traditional”—“traditional marriage”, they say, never included same-sex unions; therefore, to allow such would be to subvert what marriage is about.
Skipping quickly past the most obvious flaws in this argument—viz., first, that “traditional” and “non-traditional” do not necessarily correlate to “good” and “bad” at all; and second, that a non-traditional marriage is still a marriage—it is still a flimsy argument, for a series of reasons. Since I seem to repeat myself in comment threads, I will summarize my arguments here for future reference.
The most oft-raised objection is that the tradition of marriage has changed over time, thus appeals to tradition are vague and empty. For instance, going back a few decades or centuries we will find changes in
Some people misunderstand this argument and object that “same-sex unions were never part of the tradition!”—which is true, but completely misses the point. The point is that the tradition has always been plastic and has evolved over the decades and centuries, and rules have been changed or dropped—generally, it seems, as a delayed reaction to humanistic improvements in our culture. It is certainly true that “the spouses must be of different sexes” has always been one of those rules, but if other rules can be dropped, why can’t that one?
You may be reaching for the reply button to tell me that, wait!, there is a good reason!—that same-sex unions cannot “naturally” produce children, for instance. However, this is a red herring. If you must resort to any such argument, you are no longer arguing that gay marriage is wrong because it is non-traditional, but rather that it is wrong and non-traditional. If you want “It’s not traditional!” to be a reason against gay marriage, then you must be consistent. However, virtually nobody actually argues in favour of other, discarded aspects of the tradition. Therefore, “It’s not traditional!” is not really a motivation at all, but a rhetorical argument disingenuously wielded for want of better arguments.
While we are at it, let’s dismiss the motivation that same-sex marriages are invalid because they cannot result in children. First, this is simply untrue—lesbian couples can have children with the help of artificial insemination, or a male friend; gay male couples can have children with the aid of a surrogate mother; any gender configuration can raise children if they are adopted. Second, the people who argue that gay marriages should not be allowed because they do not result in children by “natural” means never seem to have the slightest urge to apply this criterion consistently, which would mean forbidding marriages
If your criterion is that “marriage is for procreation”, then you should oppose these types of marriage every bit as firmly as you oppose same-sex marriage. If you don’t, then whatever your real reason is, it clearly isn’t the procreation angle.
Finally, something that is often overlooked is that defenders of “traditional” marriage tend to speak as though there were only one tradition (their own, of course). But this is not so, and while we may live in a culture evolved from and dominated by Judeo-Christian tradition, it’s not the only one around. The tradition of male-male eros in ancient Greece is well-known; in modern times, it is fairly clear that so-called Boston marriages often (though far from always) were, in effect, lesbian partnerships.
Around the world, there have been many cultures and traditions that allow, encourage, or celebrate same-sex relationships. Anthropologists have found several dozen African populations with female-female marriages, as well as male-male unions; North American indigenous cultures have recognised various fluid gender identities; pre-modern China had several examples of same-sex marriages.
Thus, to say that “Same-sex marriage is not traditional!” comes with the implicit assumption of confining yourself to one or a particular set of cultures. It’s highly traditional in some parts of the world—it just so happens that these traditions are not the dominant ones in the Western world.
On a lighter note, I recently came across one of the worst arguments I have ever heard in this debate:
To call a homosexual union a "marriage" is to equate it to "traditional marriage," which it is not. Again, this has nothing to do with discrimination, but changing the institution and definition of marriage and violating the first amendment right of freedom of religion. This includes religious expression.
This is so perversely wrong that it’s actually funny. Marriage, as it is currently defined in the United States, is constrained by the rules of the Judeo-Christian cultural background of the European settlers who invaded North America. To allow gay marriage would obviously not infringe on the right of Christians to marry people of the opposite sex. It might offend them, and they might for various absurd reasons feel that it devalues them, but it does nothing to prevent them from engaging in exactly the same religious rituals and religious ceremonies that they already do. It would not affect their rights—only the rights of the same-sex couples who would now be allowed to marry.
If anything (and this is what makes it so perverse), the current laws could be construed as a First Amendment violation! After all, by forbidding same-sex unions, the government is promoting one religion’s view of marriage (the Christian one) over the views of certain other religions (e.g. some African and indigenous North American ones). The current state of things has one religious tradition entrenched in the law—which is precisely what the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment was written to prevent. (I’m not saying that a strong case could necessarily be made that “marriage for heteros only” is an Establishment violation, but if we are to talk violation, it is clearly the case that the status quo favours Christianity, rather than that a change would infringe on anybody’s religious rights.)
A great deal more could be said on this subject. This is not a piece of advocacy—I’m sure it’s clear that I do advocate recognising same-sex marriages every bit as much as hetero-sex marriages—but the aim here is to discuss some common fallacies and counterfactual claims that have been repeatedly issued in the course of debate. The next time these arise, I will simply provide a link to this post and say, “Here, go see why you are wrong”.
Labels: atheism, faith infiltration
"Wherever you turn today - Jewish, Christian or Muslim - the more religious the community, the larger on average are their families.
"The major assault on religion today comes from the neo-Darwinians."Really, people who believe in evolution are to blame for falling populations?
Call me scientific but might it just be that the number of people surviving birth has increased: 140 infant deaths per 1,000 births in 1900 to 5.4 per 1,000 in 1997. With more people surviving birth you don't need as many children, life expectancy has also increased (75 for boys, 80 for girls in 1999 compared to 45 and 49 respectively in 1901). A longer life expectancy reduces the pressure to have children at a young age, or at all.Next, we'll be blamed for global warming.
From time immemorial, this world has been troubled by plagues. From bogong moths in Canberra to frogs in biblical Egypt, unwelcome and unlovely creatures have the awkward habit of turning up in bulk.
Just now, we are facing one of our largest and least appealing infestations. … we are beset by atheists.Wow. Atheists – fellow human beings who lack belief in god – are one of the largest and least appealing plague infestations of unwelcome and unlovely creatures. I guess it is not clever, witty or funny to insult Christians, but it is clever, witty and funny to compare atheists to plague infestations.
As brash, noisy and confident as an electric kettle.That's very brash, noisy and confident of Crave to proclaim these things about atheists, isn't it? He goes on to say that the "new" atheists are targeting Catholics in particular. He thinks this is odd, given the proliferation of other religions for us to target and surmises that we attack the Catholic Church because doing so is the equivalent of "nuking the Pentagon" and "Guerilla bands of Baptists and Pentecostals can be liquidated at leisure."
Catholics have the undeniable advantage that they demonstrably believe in something. Attacking some of the more swinging Christian denominations might mean upsetting people who believe a good deal less than the average atheistHe proceeds to use lots of insulting adjectives in an apparent attempt at wit, referring to atheists as, "a diverting pastime", "designer atheism", "common or garden atheist", "tabloid atheist", "atheistic bigotry". Let's imagine for a moment that these adjectives were applied to Catholics. Catholicism is a diverting pastime. Designer Catholicism. Common or Garden Catholicism. Tabloid Catholicism. Catholic bigotry.
In an average week of atheistic bigotry in the Melbourne Media, we can expect to learn that Catholics endorse child molestation, hate all other religions, would re-introduce the crusades and the auto de fe at the slightest opportunity, despise women, wish to persecute homosexuals, greedily divert public moneys for their own religious purposes, subvert public health care, brainwash children, and are masterminding the spread of the cane toad across north AustraliaUm…Here's the thing. I do not hear atheists (even Australian ones) claiming in the media that Catholics do all of those things in the above paragraph. We say things like this: "This particular Catholic demonstrably hates other religions. Here are some specific examples…" which gets strawmanned into… well… this. If atheists do say this, then I do not agree with them. Even if they do make these blanket strawman statements, Crave is the pot calling the kettle black. Of course, when he wants to point out examples of "atheist bigotry", he provides no references to the claims being made.
Labels: just life