Does Objectification Equal Sexism?
An interesting business was recently under discussion on Atheist Nexus and by our good friend The Nerd. That business is a small coffee shop, the Java Divas. Seriously, check out their site. Attractive women selling coffee in skimpy, suggestive costumes. The coffee even comes in large/medium/small cups identified by bra sizes. Another interesting tidbit - the owner and operator/fellow scantily-clad server is also a woman.
So . . . thoughts? Much conversation at the above-mentioned internet places has already revolved around the idea of objectification not being morally/socially good or bad in and of itself. Clearly, I sometimes objectify Ziztur, and she sometimes objectifies me. This clearly has no inherent sexism, for a large number of reasons.
The principle difference, pointed out several times already, is that the suggestively-clad women at Java Divas have nothing more than a financial relationship with the customers (presumably, at least in the vast majority of cases). There is at least a possible element of the women in question being resigned, by their financial situation, to working that job under these conditions.
My question, not to sugar-coat it too much, but: So the hell what?
I'm reminded of this incident (among others in other firefighting departments around the world) in which a woman or women came short of physical fitness requirements for the job the were doing or applying for. This particular case dealt with a distance run, and I've seen other cases dealing primarily with the immense upper-body strength required to be a firefighter. Basically, in a nutshell, by any reasonable standard, you have to be an utter hardass to be a firefighter.
Now, I'm certainly not going to say that gender bias and discrimination have never been a factor in firefighting; that would just be spectacularly ignorant. However, it's obvious to most people that these physical fitness standards are for the safety of the firefighters themselves and the safety of the public that they serve, and are not inherently gender-biased.
My question is this: How are the women at Java Divas, or any similar establishment, being objectified for their physical appearance any more than firefighters are being objectified for their physical strength? For that matter, why does the criteria have to be physical? If someone happens to have knowledge and/or experience of, for example, the insurance business, or of Occupational Therapy, and are hired for a job on that criteria, how is their employment not "objectifying" them on the basis of that knowledge?
So, what does it say about someone's attitude towards women, their attitude towards sex, or their attitude towards what they think is women's attitude towards sex (try saying that ten times fast . . .) when they basically claim that women aren't capable of choosing for themselves what to do with their potential physical attractiveness? Do these folks really worry about whether, to use just one example, firefighters (who after all are in much more physical danger on the job than baristas) are being exploited for their body strength, or are they basically, in effect, thinking, "Ah, well, they're men; of course they can make a mature decision about their own employment."?
Need I even mention that whatever "objectification" of the Java Divas employees that's occurring pales in comparison to a stripper, porn star, or prostitute? I think it's obvious that an almost puritan or religious restriction on what women can and can't do with their bodies is the more sexist attitude, not only because of it's anti-sex overtones, but also because of it's strong implication that those mentally weak wimminfolk just don't have the emotional maturity to deal with people looking at their bodies.
What do you guys think?
So . . . thoughts? Much conversation at the above-mentioned internet places has already revolved around the idea of objectification not being morally/socially good or bad in and of itself. Clearly, I sometimes objectify Ziztur, and she sometimes objectifies me. This clearly has no inherent sexism, for a large number of reasons.
The principle difference, pointed out several times already, is that the suggestively-clad women at Java Divas have nothing more than a financial relationship with the customers (presumably, at least in the vast majority of cases). There is at least a possible element of the women in question being resigned, by their financial situation, to working that job under these conditions.
My question, not to sugar-coat it too much, but: So the hell what?
I'm reminded of this incident (among others in other firefighting departments around the world) in which a woman or women came short of physical fitness requirements for the job the were doing or applying for. This particular case dealt with a distance run, and I've seen other cases dealing primarily with the immense upper-body strength required to be a firefighter. Basically, in a nutshell, by any reasonable standard, you have to be an utter hardass to be a firefighter.
Now, I'm certainly not going to say that gender bias and discrimination have never been a factor in firefighting; that would just be spectacularly ignorant. However, it's obvious to most people that these physical fitness standards are for the safety of the firefighters themselves and the safety of the public that they serve, and are not inherently gender-biased.
My question is this: How are the women at Java Divas, or any similar establishment, being objectified for their physical appearance any more than firefighters are being objectified for their physical strength? For that matter, why does the criteria have to be physical? If someone happens to have knowledge and/or experience of, for example, the insurance business, or of Occupational Therapy, and are hired for a job on that criteria, how is their employment not "objectifying" them on the basis of that knowledge?
So, what does it say about someone's attitude towards women, their attitude towards sex, or their attitude towards what they think is women's attitude towards sex (try saying that ten times fast . . .) when they basically claim that women aren't capable of choosing for themselves what to do with their potential physical attractiveness? Do these folks really worry about whether, to use just one example, firefighters (who after all are in much more physical danger on the job than baristas) are being exploited for their body strength, or are they basically, in effect, thinking, "Ah, well, they're men; of course they can make a mature decision about their own employment."?
Need I even mention that whatever "objectification" of the Java Divas employees that's occurring pales in comparison to a stripper, porn star, or prostitute? I think it's obvious that an almost puritan or religious restriction on what women can and can't do with their bodies is the more sexist attitude, not only because of it's anti-sex overtones, but also because of it's strong implication that those mentally weak wimminfolk just don't have the emotional maturity to deal with people looking at their bodies.
What do you guys think?

19 Comments:
Clearly there is just a natural spectrum from personhood to objectification and there's no reason to assume either end of it has to be constant necessarily. As long as one is experiencing a broad scope over time and in general, indulging in the shallow end of the pool on occasion shouldn't be a moral ill. It can be flattering, after all.
I'm not sure your firefighter comparison is helpful. Women aren't directly needing to survive at Java Divas by being scantily clad. The practical end there is sating the visual lusts of the hetero-male customers rather than avoiding death. So those are two completely different levels of "objectification" and it seems off topic to me.
Also a nitpick: as far as I know, the woman in charge of Java Divas is just a proxy for her husband.
Ben
Since I don't expect you to read through 11 pages of comments, I thought I'd share this one with you: http://www.atheistnexus.org/xn/detail/2182797:Comment:686544
I personally don't object to the idea of "sexy coffee" itself, but that it only has one very narrow definition of "sexy" for sale. I was like "wait, where are the dudes? And with a name like Java Divas, did they really have 0 applications from drag queens?"
I think the comparison between Java Devas and fire-fighters is a poor one: as War_on_error said there is an issue of safety with respect to fire-fighters and those woman who are strong enough can apply (and hopefully get the job) with the Devas I'd be interested if an equally attractive man would get the job.
That being said I don't think there is anything wrong with the concept, I think it reflects more on the people who shop there than those who work there and if your happy to be ogled why not make a buck from it? By removing this sort of shop your not going to stop objectification and that is what needs to be tackled: not people's exploitation of others idiocy in this way.
I think ultimately society should move towards a situation in which this sort of discrimination shouldn't matter, because it doesn't: I would like a society where this sort of place works happily, next door to the male, trans and hermaphrodite versions.
As you rightly said this is not really so far from discriminating against someone because they can't do maths: if you want to be an accountant you need to be able to do maths you don't have to be male though.
I suppose a simple way is to view it thus: watching and paying a stripper is not objectification, viewing the stripper as something bought and sold is. Just as buying coffee from Devas isn't objectification it's buying coffee in a quirky place, thinking that the people you buy from owe you titillation for shopping there is objectification. A company can't objectify, its owner and staff can though.
I hope this makes sense and I would like to qualify this with the following: that I don't consider myself to be the sort of person who objectifies people but feel to try and prove me wrong: if you do I will try to change.
I've always had a bit of a problem with the term "objectification" in the context of sexism. It's a bit fuzzy and I've too many times seen it used in a way that, so far as I can tell, equates having a (male) sex drive with a sexist objectification of women.
The issue I have with businesses like Java Divas is that it makes physical attractiveness a requirement of employment for a job for which physical attractiveness is not an intrinsically necessary (like modeling).
Would we find that acceptable if, using your example, the job was that of firefighter: "I'm sorry, Ms. Smith, you have the strength and stamina to be a firefighter but you're a 3.5 at best---not to mention you're clearly an A cup."
We'd be rightly outraged. Why should it be any different in regard to waitressing?
I'm not even sure if that's right. the modeling business employs all kinds of models, both "attractive" and "not so attractive". Being attractive may not be a requirement for waitressing, but being attractive is also not a requirement of having your photo or video taken for modeling. Though, it is true that "the way you look" is the reason you're being photographed.
www.ugly.org is a good example!
David,
Do you honestly believe that physical attractiveness does not matter in waitressing? I bet that if we put in the slightest bit of effort, we could find solid statistics showing that ‘more attractive’ waitresses receive higher tips and report better customer satisfaction.
I didn't say that attractiveness doesn't improve one's success at waitressing. I said attractiveness isn't intrinsically necessary to waitressing (a waiter's job is to take the customer's order, bring them their food and drinks, refill drinks, etc; none of which necessitates that one be attractive). That attractive waitresses get more tips and people prefer them only demonstrates that customers are people and like people in general are biased in favor of attractiveness.
It doesn't follow from this fact that it should be regarded as acceptable to base hiring practices on attractiveness?
I’m not talking about whether it’s acceptable—I’m just calling your fireman argument into question. Basing hiring standards for firewomen on attractiveness would be obviously loony and purely discriminatory since an attractive firefighter is no better at the job than an unattractive one. Whether we think it’s acceptable or not to base waitress hiring standards on attractiveness, it’s at least more motivated because there are actually objective business reasons to do so.
That said, on an aside I would also argue that the duties of waiting staff involve more than taking orders, bringing food, etc.; it also involves hospitality and making the customers feel welcome and happy about their dining experience. As long as people feel more satisfied eating in restaurants with pretty waitresses, pretty waitresses do have an advantage in their jobs.
Note that I’m not saying “…and this is morally good”.
On a completely different note, in reply to the title of this post (“Does Objectification Equal Sexism?”), I would say: No, absolutely not. They may be related and correlated, but they are certainly not identical. After all, objectification does not need to cross gender boundaries, and does not need to be restricted to any gender. A man may objectify other men, a women may objectify other women, anyone may objectify people of both genders (or gender intermediates).
Oh yeah, I constantly objectify everyone sexually, but it isn't sexist. And I try to keep my naughty thoughts in my pants where they belong, instead of in my actions where they don't (usually) belong.
Reminder: objectification is by no means limited to sex, it's whenever a person is treated as a tool or a means to an end.
I, for one, absolutely objectify women. I enjoy having a pretty waitress, and I have been known to ogle a time or two. Would I choose to buy my coffee at a place where I can see some pretty, smiling girls before I go to work? Sure thing. But this does not diminish my respect for women in general. I think objectification becomes sexism when you consider women (or men) ONLY as objects, and not people-objects. After all, at first glance, a girl's physical appearance is all I know about her -- she is an object in my mind until I can know her as a person.
I think perhaps we could find a better example than fire fighters -- after all, lives are on the line there. I would suggest a parallel in sports -- taller people are better for basketball; slight, small people make better jockeys; and your star sumo wrestlers had better be huge.
Basing hiring standards for firewomen on attractiveness would be obviously loony and purely discriminatory since an attractive firefighter is no better at the job than an unattractive one.
Getting more tips because of one's looks doesn't mean one is a better waitress (or waiter).
Whether we think it’s acceptable or not to base waitress hiring standards on attractiveness, it’s at least more motivated because there are actually objective business reasons to do so.
True. One might very well get far more business than the restaurant down the street of one only hires attractive employees (this is true of almost any job involving interaction with the public).
But so what? Lots of morally objectionable things are profitable.
it also involves hospitality and making the customers feel welcome and happy about their dining experience. As long as people feel more satisfied eating in restaurants with pretty waitresses, pretty waitresses do have an advantage in their jobs.
Note that I’m not saying “…and this is morally good”.
No, but you keep equating having an advantage in one's job with being better at it. An unattractive person can make people welcome and be hospitable even if the customer doesn't get the added bonus of getting to check out a shapely ass as the waitress walks away to fill the order.
These girls are smart attractive and have innumerable job prospects and I think its their brains not there boobs that say this is a good gig and I am going to be stared at no matter where I work why not make $25 per hr in tips. The female owner works as a barista as well occassionally, I hav emt her and the place is just a quirky fun, gourmet coffee shop not exploiting anyone.
I looked at the menu page and saw something funny: in a pictues of one of the employees you can just make out a jar that reads "God knows who doesn't tip"!
@revatheist: So god doesn't mind if you lust after them in your heart, but damn if he's going to let you get away with stiffing them on the tip!
I just find it weird that to women, being found attractive can be considered something bad and offensive. I've never heard (or even heard of) a man complaining about being "objectified" by women who consider him attractive. Women seem to want to be found attractive, yet the same women may also take offence at any explicit indication that others find them attractive. I would genuinely appreciate an explanation of the logic behind this.
Hm. True; firefighting physical fitness standards aren't the most apt comparison; that was just what was on my mind. I agree that athletic teams are a better example.
David B. Ellis;
"No, but you keep equating having an advantage in one's job with being better at it."
Um, isn't that kind of true by definition?
Attractiveness isn't *necessary* to serve coffee, but it does make customers happy, which increases sales, which is their greater job description. To say otherwise, it seems to me, at least, is like saying that a football player's literal job is to play football. Lots of people are capable of running, throwing the ball, and catching it. Is it therefore morally questionable to discriminate against those who cannot do these things quite as well as others?
There are whole industries based on attractiveness. It comes into play to some degree or another in almost any line of work involving working with the public face-to-face, but is clearly overwhelmingly important in modeling and film (especially the pornographic varieties). We could potentially discuss how we might enforce anti-unattractiveness discrimination regulations in businesses that sell coffee, but such measures applied universally would basically instantly destroy all of porn.
Thus, this entire line of inquiry becomes unacceptable. ;)
Marc_Newcomb;
I've thought of that before. That's clearly the case; it's basically impossible for any woman to offend me by indicating that she finds me attractive, while there is a point at which most women are very uncomfortable with being objectified.
The only thing I can think of is perhaps an evolutionary/societal effect of humanity's early days, when blatant objectification of a *woman* by a *man* was not unlikely to be a precursor to rape and/or kidnapping, when the reverse was not true at all. This is just speculation, though; if anyone else has any better thoughts, I'm all ears.
"The only thing I can think of is perhaps an evolutionary/societal effect of humanity's early days, when blatant objectification of a *woman* by a *man* was not unlikely to be a precursor to rape and/or kidnapping, when the reverse was not true at all."
That's possible. I'm more likely to blame the F'ed up way kids are raised in our society. Girls are made to practically fear the penis. "Look out, if it touches you, it will steal your purity!" And if you actually like the sound of that, you're a slut. Any woman who can just sit back and enjoy sexual attention without feeling uncomfortable emotional baggage is a counter-cultural radical.
". . . fear the penis. "Look out, if it touches you, it will steal your purity!"
The flip side of which, of course, is the tacit condoning, almost pride, of (some) parents upon discovering that their son can get laid like crazy. And obviously parents aren't the only ones perpetuating this attitude.
I used to think that this was overblown; I used to figure that most people were either like me, having no problem at all with sluts of either the penile or vaginal variety, or like my parents, who firmly claimed that both men and women must remain "pure" until marriage. I figured that the band of idiots who looked down on women for having sex but praised men for the same was relatively narrow and sparsely populated. Having met more people and looking back on my parent's reactions, this attitude is, I think, more prevalent than I thought. I can't seem to find any hard data, though . . .
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